Lifesource Water versus a 'salt' system

drtan wrote:

So is it good enough to just buy the $500 softener from Lowes, Home Depot, or Sears with a water filter for drinking water?

The negatives regarding the (Sears, GE, Whirlpool, Waterboss, et al) pre-built softeners are ...

Lower quality materials in the control valve, mostly ABS which ages and becomes brittle. ABS does not do well with really hard water. On 3 gr hardness city water most any softener will give a decent service life BUT harder water than that seperates the pre-built box store softeners from the quality ones.

While all ion exchange water softeners use resin and "tanks" there's a big difference in the resin and resin "tanks". Again, the pre-built softeners do not use the top quality resin from companies like Purolite or Ionac and the materials their resin "tanks" are made of are not the same quality as the Structural brand (10 year warranty) resin tanks the top quality softeners come with.

Most of the parts are proprietary and only available from limited sources and they tend to be expensive.

The pre-built softeners are "cabinet" (all-in-one) designs and are much harder to work on. The cabinet design puts the resin tank inside the brine tank. The routine cleaning of the brine tank is more difficult and takes a lot more time than a conventional design softener but the Sears type does take less floor space (the ONLY advantage in it's design).

A common misconception is that pre-built BOX store softeners are less expensive than the industry standard softeners.

The Sears softeners around 40000 hardness capacity generally run a little under $500. For $466 you can have a Fleck 5600SE electronic on demand metered softener delivered to your home including shipping. You'll need to assemble it (takes less than 30 minutes) and install it. You can have a plumber assemble it and install it (you'd need a plumber to install the Sears softener also or DIY). If buying from a local water treatment pro the same softener will be more expensive but will include delivery, installation, and service after the sale.

You'll get a control valve that has proved it's reliability over 20+ years, is made of state of the art materials (Noryl) which does not turn brittle and is totally inert. You'll get a 5 year warranty on the control valve and ten year warranty on the resin tank. You can buy parts for the Fleck control valve locally or all over the internet. Complete parts and service/repair manuals are available for download and there is always someone everywhere who can service Fleck control valves as they are the long established industry standard AND they are as easy OR easier to program than the pre-built softeners. They tolerate the hardest water with no problem.

Real softeners generally last 20+ years EVEN on ludicrously hard water while the service life on a pre-built softener seems to be under 5 years (if you're lucky) on really hard water and lasting longer than that is a rare exception.

Sears, GE, Waterboss, Whirlpool, and the like are the most commonly complained about water softeners all over the internet. Fleck based water softeners just work and work and work and work and work ...

Why buy a lesser quality water softener for more money?

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Thank you H2o_Man and Justalurker!
Thank you very much for your prompt responses. Per the test kit instruction, I recorded 7.4-7.6 for pH; Iron, Copper, Chlorine are 0ppm; Total Alkalinity is less than 180ppm;Nitrates and Nitrites levels are safe; Bacteria: negative; Pesticide all negative.
Per Justalurker recommendation, I will go with Fleck. My house is new (2 years and I didn't know anything about water hardness, etc. then!). Again, thank you for your help!

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Fleck is excellent ~ I use the digital 2510SE control valve.

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H2O_MAN wrote:

Fleck is excellent ~ I use the digital 2510SE control valve.

The 2510SE is an excellent valve, I simply used the 5600SE as a price comparison to the less expensive(?) Sears softeners.

If you choose a Fleck valve get the "SE" simple electronics version.

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Thank you H2o_Man and Justalurker!
Thank you. I will keep you posted! Have a great weekend!

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H2O_MAN wrote:

drtanBefore you buy the LOWES or HD products try and locate a plumbing supply house that sells North Star.

Over the years I have had many Kenmore, GE and North Star softeners and filters apart. They all use the same control valve and tanks although North Star is a two tank type softener instead of a cabinet model.

The only difference is the GE motor is a teeny bit different. Those and the Whirlpool and mortonsalt.com are all the same softener packaged all but the same.

The plumbers and well drillers that sell North Star and the plumbing/pump supplyhouses all charge a premium price for North Star equipment and it is not worth 1/2 the price.

BTW (justalurk) Purolite makes all the resin (C-100e/1420) used in all the big box store brands. You won't find any info on it, it is proprietary to Ecowater.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

BTW (justalurk) Purolite makes all the resin (C-100e/1420) used in all the big box store brands. You won't find any info on it, it is proprietary to Ecowater.

I'm sure Purolite, as with any manufacturer of anything, has the ability to manufacture a product "speced" for price point or other specifics as the customer requires. When one manufactures a first tier product reducing the quality or performance to meet a lower price is not difficult and it is done all the time.

And being "proprietary" resin (regardless of who manufactures it) it is not "industry standard" as I recommend.

Gary, it seems that you and I are in agreement that there are better built and designed softeners available than Sears and other box store "pre-built" softeners at close to the same prices? That was the point of my post.

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justalurker wrote:

The negatives regarding the (Sears, GE, Whirlpool, Waterboss, et al) pre-built softeners are ...

Lower quality materials in the control valve, mostly ABS which ages and becomes brittle. ABS does not do well with really hard water. On 3 gr hardness city water most any softener will give a decent service life BUT harder water than that seperates the pre-built box store softeners from the quality ones.

The amount of hardness in water does effect resins, control valves, tanks or softeners. There is a limit to how much hardness a softener can handle and it is based on the size of the softener, and thereby the volume of resin and the water quality.

justalurker wrote:

While all ion exchange water softeners use resin and "tanks" there's a big difference in the resin and resin "tanks". Again, the pre-built softeners do not use the top quality resin from companies like Purolite or Ionac and the materials their resin "tanks" are made of are not the same quality as the Structural brand (10 year warranty) resin tanks the top quality softeners come with.

None of that is true. Purolite makes all the resin for Ecowater built big box store brands; GE, Kenmore, Whirlpool, North Star, mortonsalt.com etc.. Water Group makes the resin/mineral tanks and they have the same NSF Standard 61 rating and use the same polyglass materials as Pentair (Structural), Enpress and Clack (Park).[/quote]

justalurker wrote:

For $466 you can have a Fleck 5600SE electronic on demand metered softener delivered to your home including shipping. You'll need to assemble it (takes less than 30 minutes) and install it. You can have a plumber assemble it and install it (you'd need a plumber to install the Sears softener also or DIY). If buying from a local water treatment pro the same softener will be more expensive but will include delivery, installation, and service after the sale.

The Clack line of control valves were invented/designed, and built now, by three exFleck engineers; one with 28 years, 22 years and 18 years. Justalurker bought a Clack WS-1 on a 1.5 cuft (48k) softener from me in Jul '04. He says it worked fine (despite me) until recently when he says he got a used Kinetico. Fleck has historically built control valves for many national brand companies, including Culligan, General Ionics, McClean, Hellenbran, Water-Right, WaterCare, Charger and many others. Except for Culligan, all have gone to Clack valves. Justalurker does not suggest Clack simply to prevent me from making sales. Therefore his advice is not toward the best control valve, especially for a DIYer, it is to fit his agenda.

justalurker wrote:

Fleck based water softeners just work and work and work and work and work ...

Why buy a lesser quality water softener for more money?

Exactly, WHY? Especially when Justalurker didn't... The Clack WS-1 is a very intelligent control and the simplest to program and easiest to repair, with less expensive parts, of all control valves on the market. It has variable reserve and soft water brine refill. It saves all kinds of historic and troubleshooting data. The 5600 is over 35 years old and is a 3/4" inlet/outlet dumb valve, even with the SE electronic timer on it; which is not that easy to program BUT, you can not replace the seals, spacers and piston without special Fleck tools. The Clack requires nothing more than a pair of pliers.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

until recently when he says he got a used Kinetico

Never said that... another innacurate quote from Gary. You continue to open your mouth just to change feet. How 'bout you begin to check your quotes?

WHERE you buy is just as important as what you buy.

How the seller treats you before you buy can be entirely different than how the seller will treat you after he's cashed your check.

In real estate it's location, location, location and with water treatment it's DEALER, DEALER, DEALER

MY AGENDA for ALL to read... is to pass on the knowledge I've accumulated and the experiences I've had dealing with water treatment dealers, manufacturers and internet sellers.

I didn't create the bad experiences, they did.

There's a reason so many people who need a water softener avoid buying them. Many potential water treatment equipment customers loathe dealing with water treatment pros(?) because some who lack ethics, morals, manners, and knowledge spoil the industry for the many who are true professionals.

Sears doesn't sell so many softeners because they are the best or the cheapest. Sears sells so many softeners because their customers have such low expectations and Sears continues to NOT disappoint them.

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Re: Thank you H2o_Man and Justalurker!

drtan wrote:

Thank you. I will keep you posted! Have a great weekend!

Your welcome! Very Happy

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
BTW (justalurk) Purolite makes all the resin (C-100e/1420 [or is it /1042?]) used in all the big box store brands. You won't find any info on it, it is proprietary to Ecowater.

justalurker" wrote:
I'm sure Purolite, as with any manufacturer of anything, has the ability to manufacture a product "speced" for price point or other specifics as the customer requires. When one manufactures a first tier product reducing the quality or performance to meet a lower price is not difficult and it is done all the time.

I know you're sure of everything, you just don't know what you don't know. Purolite C100 and C-100e is as "industry standard" as it gets. The /1420 is additional to C-100/C-100e; you can tell that based on the C-100e before it. If you knew more about those softeners, you'd know it is not the "price point" that has been speced.

justalurker wrote:
And being "proprietary" resin (regardless of who manufactures it) it is not "industry standard" as I recommend.

Regardless of who makes it... really? In essence softening resin is resin like softener salt is salt and there is litttle difference from one brand to another. You are all for Fleck and yet Fleck makes many controls for national brand companies that are private labeled based on the 5600 or 2510 etc.. They have some difference from the stock valves yet they are not less quality than the valve they are based on. In many instances, they are better than the base valve because they have additional features etc.. It's basically the same with resin.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

If you knew more about those softeners, you'd know it is not the "price point" that has been speced.

Speed reading and misquoting posts again Gary... here it is again, READ REAL SLOW

"I'm sure Purolite, as with any manufacturer of anything, has the ability to manufacture a product "speced" for price point or other specifics as the customer requires"

I didn't write speced for price point only.

When you reply to my posts I expect to be accurately quoted and it'd be more productive if you replied to what I posted and not what you think I posted.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Fleck makes many controls for national brand companies that are private labeled based on the 5600 or 2510 etc.. They have some difference from the stock valves yet they are not less quality than the valve they are based on.

In many instances, they are better than the base valve because they have additional features etc..

I have found the base valves to be superior to private label valves with the additional whistles and bells (features etc...).

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justalurker wrote:

The negatives regarding the (Sears, GE, Whirlpool, Waterboss, et al) pre-built softeners are ...

Lower quality materials in the control valve, mostly ABS which ages and becomes brittle. ABS does not do well with really hard water. On 3 gr hardness city water most any softener will give a decent service life BUT harder water than that seperates the pre-built box store softeners from the quality ones.

Gary Slusser wrote:

The amount of hardness in water does effect resins, control valves, tanks or softeners .

That should be: The amount of hardness in water does NOT effect resins, control valves, tanks or softeners (as justalurker says hardness does).

As to others suggesting the Fleck 2510 control valve. It is a basic and good control valve that costs the same as a Clack WS-1. Over the last 21 years I've sold many 2510s and many more of the 2500 that the 2510 replaced. I've also sold a number of the side mount 1500 version of the 2500. I've serviced A LOT of all of them, including the 5600, 6600 and 6700; and the 8500/9000/9100 twin tanks control valves. And the 5000/ProFlo that H2OMan says he doesn't know of but he still thinks the 2510 is the best control valve...

The main problem of the 2510 is they develop a leak in just a few years at the piston end cap o-ring on the piston stem. It leaks down over the front of the backing plate onto the tank and onto the floor. To fix the problem you must replace the piston seals and spacers which gets a new end cap on the new piston stem.

The problem with that is that you must have the special 1500/2500/2510 Fleck tools to get the old parts out and the new in. Or call for service.

Justalurker has never owned, rebuilt or serviced (up to just a year or so ago) any Fleck control valve. He goes on about things based on what he has read and been told by others about the Fleck controls on web sites etc. that compete with me and the Clack WS-1.

H2OMan has serviced and repaired control valves but I don't know to what extent or depth of repair, like totally rebuilding them... I'm not sure if he has done anything other than Fleck 2510s and Rain Soft and/or Ecowater control valves.

Justalurker, prior to the Fleck 7000 introduction, said that Fleck controls where old technology and outdated when compared to his Clack WS-1.

He was totally correct then and for the last 18 moinths since I upset him he's giving unfounded and incorrect advice but it is not based on his personal experience with softeners. He has never owned a Fleck anything and has a Clack WS-1 OR a used or new Kinetico or other twin tank. He should stick with selling used watches and tie-dyed tee shirts.

What he has changes to suit his mood; last he said was that his softener he bought from me worked fine despite me but he took it out of service and I could buy it back from him because he replaced it with a twin tank (he loves Kinetico now). Maybe folks should ask him what he has and how many softeners using Fleck valves he has repaired. He sold his last watch about a year ago; he was downsized years before that, so maybe he servicing softeners now. Ask him.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

He has never owned a Fleck anything and has a Clack WS-1 OR a used or new Kinetico or other twin tank.

And you know this how and which is it?

Gary Slusser wrote:

Justalurker has never owned, rebuilt or serviced (up to just a year or so ago) any Fleck control valve.

And you know THIS how? I've done quite a few and actually... it's so easy a caveman could do it :wink:

Gary Slusser wrote:

last he said was that his softener he bought from me worked fine despite me

And it continues to work fine. It is not setup as you recommended and softens it's little resin beads off despite you ranting that it would fail unless I set it up exactly as you said to. The only thing wrong with that softener is where I bought it not what I bought.

Water softeners are not black magic. Ion exchange softeners use chemistry, physics, and a mechanical functions to soften water. That's it plain and simple. Any one willing to take the time to learn can master a water softener... now, creating and maintaining a combative, inconsiderate, and bullying attitude takes a lot more work.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Purolite makes all the resin for Ecowater built big box store brands; GE, Kenmore, Whirlpool, North Star, mortonsalt.com etc.. Water Group makes the resin/mineral tanks and they have the same NSF Standard 61 rating and use the same polyglass materials as Pentair (Structural), Enpress and Clack (Park)

So, Gary Slusser says that the resin and components of Sears, GE, Whirlpool, North Star, And Morton softeners are the same quality as the resin and components in the industry standard softeners he sells (er, drop ships)... so don't bother to buy a softener from him. Go over to Sears and pick one up? Gary says it's the same quality and if Gary says so it must be true.

Lots of people come to self-help forums seeking advice and lots of people lurk without posting. Many people post trying to help those asking for it and a few post trying to line their pockets on someone else's forum.

Anyone reading this and other self-help forums can easily tell who is who.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

The main problem of the 2510 is they develop a leak in just a few years at the piston end cap o-ring on the piston stem.

Yep, some older versions did in fact develop a small weeping leak at the end cap O-ring. The fix is easy and no special tools are required.
I have repaired orphans (DIY installs and defunct company's) that had been weeping for years yet the functionality of the valve was unaffected.
The Fleck 2510SE control valve is a proven performer that has benefited from factory upgrades that make it an outstanding value for the consumer.

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
Justalurker has never owned, rebuilt or serviced (up to just a year or so ago) any Fleck control valve.

And you know THIS how? I've done quite a few and actually... it's so easy a caveman could do it :wink:

Since you have "done quite a few", that makes your advice worse than originally thought! You never mention the special tools or difficulty. Are you now saying you are in the business of repairing softeners/control valves and you are "typing for dollars" as you say I do?

Gary Slusser wrote:

last he said was that his softener he bought from me worked fine despite me

justalurker wrote:

]And it continues to work fine. It is not setup as you recommended and softens it's little resin beads off despite you ranting that it would fail unless I set it up exactly as you said to. The only thing wrong with that softener is where I bought it not what I bought.

I'm glad to hear it is working fine.

Our problem isn't about how you set up your softener, it is about our disagreement on my forum of how much to increase the salt dose when someone changes to potassium chloride. You didn't change to potassium, you used KCL for ten years in your Braswell softener prior to buying this softener from me in Jul 2004. And I had already increased your salt dose for KCL use when I gave you the programming data. See your I set it up exactly as you said to above. That disagreement was on my forum, in email and on the phone and the thread and copy/pasted email is still there; in Questions & Answers with the subject just so everyone has both sides ... by SMS (you) 12 1149 last reply dated 21 Aug 2005 09:35 pm by Gary Slusser (me)

justalurker wrote:

Water softeners are not black magic. Ion exchange softeners use chemistry, physics, and a mechanical functions to soften water. That's it plain and simple. Any one willing to take the time to learn can master a water softener... now, creating and maintaining a combative, inconsiderate, and bullying attitude takes a lot more work.

We are talking about repairing/rebuilding a 5600 or 2510.

Here you and H2OMan are saying it is much easier than I'm saying it is while you guys are telling people to buy those controls without mentioning the expensive Fleck special tools or difficulty in replacing the seals and spacers.

I educate people about the advantages and disadvantages of all control valves and sell the 5600 and 2510 yet I am the only one mentioning the expensive Fleck special tools; that's two very different positions. Also, you own and now say you are still using a softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve, yet never mention it anywhere except in a situation such as this... Why is that?

Gary Slusser wrote:

Purolite makes all the resin for Ecowater built big box store brands; GE, Kenmore, Whirlpool, North Star, mortonsalt.com etc.. Water Group makes the resin/mineral tanks and they have the same NSF Standard 61 rating and use the same polyglass materials as Pentair (Structural), Enpress and Clack (Park)

justalurker wrote:

So, Gary Slusser says that the resin and components of Sears, GE, Whirlpool, North Star, And Morton softeners are the same quality as the resin and components in the industry standard softeners

I didn't say their "softeners", I said their resin and resin tanks; reread it.

justalurker wrote:

Anyone reading this and other self-help forums can easily tell who is who.

The heart of a softener is the control valve and it is the most important/critical component. The length of the service free operation of a softener depends on the quality of the control valve.

ALL control valves will sooner than later require repair; bar none. Having a control valve that requires special tools to repair it increases the cost to both the DIYer and/or the dependent to local dealers consumer.

Not advising people of that is inexcusable. And yes, many people see who is saying what, and how they say it.

You have a personal problem with me and you allow it to slant your advice. In the last 10-13 years you have not been able to get along with any dealer you bought a softener from and there is the Braswell manufacturer. That in your words is on my forum, the thread is still there where you savagely attacked the owner Earl Braswell. Now you do the same with me while misleading people with your 5600 and 2510 advice when the Clack WS-1 is the best control valve for a number of reasons which you do not mention. That's all designed to keep people away from me. Shame on you.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Are you now saying you are in the business of repairing softeners/control valves and you are "typing for dollars" as you say I do?

Nope. Do you see me or anyone else on this or other self-help forums, including the forums you've been banned from for self-promotion, posting "go to my web site" or "do a search for" (a word you know will bring up your web site first in the list) "keyboard for dollars"as you do? You are the ONLY poster DIRECTLY trolling for DIRECT sales on other people's forums.

As far as you saying you post to help anybody whether they bought from you or not self-help forums are littered with your responses to people seeking help saying "you should ask the guys you bought it from"... so Gary, which is it?

There are people who post on these forums who are in the business and NEVER identify that they are in the business or what brands they sell... you are the one who posts that information about others.

Gary Slusser wrote:

And it continues to work fine.

And it indeed does at its current location as I have it set up. There is nothing unique that you sell and it's all available from many other sellers and local water treatment pros.

Gary Slusser wrote:

ALL control valves will sooner than later require repair; bar none. Having a control valve that requires special tools to repair it increases the cost to both the DIYer and/or the dependent to local dealers consumer.

Absolutely true and many people are willing to pay for service when they need it. Being without treated water for a day or two or three is an inconvenience many are unwilling to bear. Some people are willing to buy without service and that's exactly what they get.

Gary Slusser wrote:

You have a personal problem with me and you allow it to slant your advice.

No slant, just direct, head on honest and accurate details of who you are and how you do business.

Gary Slusser wrote:

In the last 10-13 years you have not been able to get along with any dealer you bought a softener from and there is the Braswell manufacturer. That in your words is on my forum, the thread is still there where you savagely attacked the owner Earl Braswell. Now you do the same with me while misleading people with your 5600 and 2510 advice when the Clack WS-1 is the best control valve (in Gary Slusser's opinon) for a number of reasons which you do not mention. That's all designed to keep people away from me. Shame on you.

I have remarked in numerous posts on many forums that I have had the "luck" to experience the worst that the water treatment industry has to offer on three occasions. First, the Braswell dealer who made specific promises and assurances and then defaulted on EVERY one, then seeking assistance from the manufacturer (Earl Braswell) was completely disinterested in resolving the problems with HIS hardware and offered no suggestions in getting it working properly other than depending on the selling dealer to remedy the problem (some day, if ever), and then buying long distance from you... and I have detailed that experience time and time again.

I posted my experiences and if other choose NOT to do business with you then they will be the better for it. Those that do get what they deserve.

I advocate that ANYONE shopping for water treatment equipment look FIRST locally to establish a yardstick for comparison and then if one wants to shop around on the internet do so. You advocate that the only "smart" way to buy a softener is to buy it from you and not get any service or installation. Are you so insecure that your offerings can't measure up to a local water treatment pro who will be more expensive BUT will install and service what they sell and stock parts for repair?

There's no SHAME on me but rather the shame is yours for being a hippocrite and a bully and abusive and making personal attacks when others try to stay on the thread's point. You can not disagree with the substance of a post without attacking the person who posted. You do it often and on every forum you post at.

Finally, you brag that you are the reason for high traffic on other people's forums, you are a legend in your own mind. People (both potential customers and people in YOUR industry) laugh at you not with you.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Here you and H2OMan are saying it is much easier than I'm saying it is while you guys are telling people to buy those
controls without mentioning the expensive Fleck special tools or difficulty in replacing the seals and spacers.

I've said it before (more than a few times now) and I'll say it again:

In the off chance the piston and seals need to be replaced in a Fleck 2510SE, No special tools are required.
I am able to quickly replace the piston and seals in a Fleck 2510 with just a screw driver and my fingers.

Sure, special proprietary tools are available for Clack, Fleck and most other valves - but they are not always needed.
Also - I service what I sell, why would I mention the cost of any tools that I use to service my clients H2O systems?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

And it {your Clack WS-1 softener} continues to work fine.

justaluker wrote:

And it indeed does at its current location as I have it set up. There is nothing unique that you sell and it's all available from many other sellers and local water treatment pros.

That's right, although there is more than a bit of uniqueness with the Clack WS-1, I have been demystifying softeners/filters and all types of water treatment equipment all over the 'net for over ten years. I did the same thing locally since 1987.

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Lifesource Water versus a 'salt' system

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