Go(o)d & (D)evil

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The christian God is the personification of everything considered right and true.

The Devil is the exact oposite.

Curious that the words 'good' and 'evil' should be so closely linked to these creatures.

We know now, most of us, that good and evil are perspectives. They are like rainbows in that what you see depends on where you stand.

Wouldn't that also indicate that the personifications of these ideas are perspectives as well. God is the idea of 'the absolute good', an imagined singularity of function in which good is absolute, and not relative to evil.

Similarly the Devil is the perspective of absolute evil, not relative to good.

But such absolutes are a paradox, and the only solution can be that the two are relative to eachother, and that we see them as two different things because we're caught in the middle of it.

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Interesting perspective Cyracuz. I like the way you set it up too. I'll have to throw my two cents in a little later though.

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i wouldn't say the devil was the exact opposite as that implies he is as powerful as God when he is only a fallen angel after all. but what you say is interesting.

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Running out of computer time but want to participate.

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bookmark

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Re: Go(o)d & (D)evil

Cyracuz wrote:

The christian God is the personification of everything considered right and true.

The Devil is the exact oposite.

Curious that the words 'good' and 'evil' should be so closely linked to these creatures.

We know now, most of us, that good and evil are perspectives. They are like rainbows in that what you see depends on where you stand.

Wouldn't that also indicate that the personifications of these ideas are perspectives as well. God is the idea of 'the absolute good', an imagined singularity of function in which good is absolute, and not relative to evil.

Similarly the Devil is the perspective of absolute evil, not relative to good.

But such absolutes are a paradox, and the only solution can be that the two are relative to eachother, and that we see them as two different things because we're caught in the middle of it.

Ok. I can't disagree with what you are saying about perspectives here. Actually I think you are right on with that. I agree also with the personifications of these idea's being perspectives as well. And yet another story... from me... lucky you... :wink:

When I first got "saved" some of my friends happened to be very involved in the "deliverance" aspect of christianity. So much so that they actually believed pretty much everyone (except themselves of course) had a demon or two or ten sitting on their shoulders whispering things in their ears. Influencing them to do things. They walked around "rebuking" demons all day long. Literally. *sigh* So did I. I was so afraid. I can't even tell you the kind of fear I was living in. Scared to death that at any moment the devil himself was going to pop up and "steal" my soul.

My perception of the devil was that he had the power to do that. That he could even "possess" me against my will if he desired to do so. That he could cause me to be in a car accident, be raped, pillaged, plundered, all because he hated me because I served "God" and not him. I had trouble sleeping at night for a long time. Scary movies would drive the worst kind of terror into my heart. Not only because of the fact I was watching it was "wrong" but also because I was taught that by doing so I was "opening a door" for the devil to come into my life.

My perception changed eventually. It took years after the "would be" exorcism the performed on me, but slowly it changed. It shifted to:

rockpie wrote:

i wouldn't say the devil was the exact opposite as that implies he is as powerful as God when he is only a fallen angel after all...

I think it still remains there to this day. Yes, I believe in the devil. I've had way too much "experiential evidence" in my life to not believe in God and the devil. Lord knows I've been trying for the last what... eight months now to cast it all off and become what is commonly called a "heathen" by some "christians" that wander this planet... LOL

Just can't do it. Cool

*sigh*

So anyway, back to the point I disagree with...

You can't call them "relative". Really you can't. They aren't "relative" at all. It's like saying the earth and the sky are relative. It just doesn't work. We are in between both of those as well, yet that doesn't make them any more related to one another.

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Actually, the distinction sky/earth is somewhat misgiving. The thing under our feet and the thing we call air are essentially the same substances in different states of existance. As we know water can be solid (ice) liquid, and vapor, the same is true of every other element. Rock can be liquid, and even vapor if it's hot enought. Temperature is the variable, or conditioning.

Similarly, conditioning is what decides where you place any given thing. Is it evil or good, it depends on your angle, not the actual thing.

So they are relative, and bound by eachother, God and the Devil. A force that is absolute in it's creativity is a logical impossibility, and so is a force absolute in it's destructivity.

So not only is God relative to the Devil. The two are actually the same idea from different perspectives.

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Hmmm... Ouch... you got me there...

Except I'm talking about time and space just as much as physical things. The earth is not the sky as it has limits, boundaries, and so forth. But the sky is limitless space. Unending, unstoppable, unfathomable. The earth is restricted. The sky is not. Our knowledge of the sky is however.

I disagree that it doesn't depend on the actual thing. Well, maybe to some it doesn't, but it should. You cannot put God or the devil into a logical box. Just like there are some things in life that you cannot put into a logical box because science itself cannot even explain it. Though it may try really hard.

So now you are calling God destructive?

Them's fightin words mister! Mad

LOL kidding. Seriously though, YOUR perspective says that God and the devil are destructive, but here's the thing about perspectives... Just because YOU hold it doesn't make it right. Nor does it bring God and the devil any closer to being relative. That's like comparing me to Adolf Hitler and saying we're "relative" just because we are human. LOL

Crap... gotta run... will continue later. Cool

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Quote:

Except I'm talking about time and space just as much as physical things. The earth is not the sky as it has limits, boundaries, and so forth. But the sky is limitless space. Unending, unstoppable, unfathomable. The earth is restricted. The sky is not. Our knowledge of the sky is however.

Again, no.

When you mention time and space I remember Einstein. He said they are acutally the same, and called it spacetime.

According to his theory, the size and shape of space isn't a fixed value. Space is shaped by the things in it. In a way matter creates the space it needs according to the gravitational potency.

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So now you are calling God destructive?

No. But I am saying that It cannot be only creative.

Think about fall and spring. Fall might seem a destructive season, while spring is the oposite. Does it make sense to talk of endless spring or fall? It's easy to see where that would lead.

I'm saying that God and Devil are two sides of the same coin, and that any supreme singularity cannot be either or, but a balance of both.

Also, think of any person you know. Think of the one who's the most creative. I bet that person is also the most destructive. I find that this is a general rule when it comes to people, although I cannot proclaim it's absolute truth... :wink:

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So Einstein travelled space to prove this idea?

Grasping at straws again...

LOL

As far as the rest...

errr... I guess you could be right about that much...

Dang... I hate it when you are right...

Grrrrr.... Twisted Evil

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Re: Go(o)d & (D)evil

Cyracuz wrote:

The christian God is the personification of everything considered right and true.

The Devil is the exact oposite.

Curious that the words 'good' and 'evil' should be so closely linked to these creatures.

We know now, most of us, that good and evil are perspectives. They are like rainbows in that what you see depends on where you stand.

Wouldn't that also indicate that the personifications of these ideas are perspectives as well. God is the idea of 'the absolute good', an imagined singularity of function in which good is absolute, and not relative to evil.

Similarly the Devil is the perspective of absolute evil, not relative to good.

But such absolutes are a paradox, and the only solution can be that the two are relative to eachother, and that we see them as two different things because we're caught in the middle of it.

God and the Devil are both good. I brought this up a while back.

The Devil is good because it punishes the wicked. The Devil has no power to punish the good. Punishing wickedness is justice and justice is good.

The Devil is also an instrument used to root out evil through temptation. Jesus was tempted but did not succumb, and the Devil had no power over him. Those that succumb to evil are punished, which is a good thing.

Therefore the Devil is good. There is no duality between the Devil and God. The only rainbow that exists is the one between your free will and the good or evil it does.

Kind Regards

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peace

I am sorry, but that just don't make sense. I am proposing that god and devil are manifestations of human ideas. Doesn't go over well with what you're saying.

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No heph, Einstein didn't travel throught space to prove his idea any more that any rockband spreading their fame. Smile

But his ideas are incorporated into countless applications of modern living, so his theories are well tested.

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Dang... I hate it when you are right...

Grrrrr....

Oops. I try not to be right so much Smile

But I do like it when you growl.. :wink:

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Re: Go(o)d & (D)evil

peace wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:
The christian God is the personification of everything considered right and true.

The Devil is the exact oposite.

Curious that the words 'good' and 'evil' should be so closely linked to these creatures.

We know now, most of us, that good and evil are perspectives. They are like rainbows in that what you see depends on where you stand.

Wouldn't that also indicate that the personifications of these ideas are perspectives as well. God is the idea of 'the absolute good', an imagined singularity of function in which good is absolute, and not relative to evil.

Similarly the Devil is the perspective of absolute evil, not relative to good.

But such absolutes are a paradox, and the only solution can be that the two are relative to eachother, and that we see them as two different things because we're caught in the middle of it.

God and the Devil are both good. I brought this up a while back.

The Devil is good because it punishes the wicked. The Devil has no power to punish the good. Punishing wickedness is justice and justice is good.

The Devil is also an instrument used to root out evil through temptation. Jesus was tempted but did not succumb, and the Devil had no power over him. Those that succumb to evil are punished, which is a good thing.

Therefore the Devil is good. There is no duality between the Devil and God. The only rainbow that exists is the one between your free will and the good or evil it does.

Kind Regards

A couple of things to think about here peace:

#1 How can the devil be "good" when he has been called by God "The father of lies" as well as being out to kill steal and destroy?

#2 How is "punishment" good? If it was in fact "good" then why did God send Jesus to suffer the punishment for all mankind?

#3 If the devil is in fact "Gods instrument" to root out evil through temptation why is it he was "kicked out of heaven" for rebelling against God's will?

#4 Is God sitting on His throne rooting for the devil to punish the "wicked" for their disobedience? Is He happy about that? Once again... then what was the point of Jesus?

While I can see why you would believe what you believe here peace, I don't understand how you are missing the contradictions in the very things you, yourself, are saying.

Cyracuz wrote:

No heph, Einstein didn't travel throught space to prove his idea any more that any rockband spreading their fame.

But his ideas are incorporated into countless applications of modern living, so his theories are well tested.

Quote:
Dang... I hate it when you are right...

Grrrrr....

Oops. I try not to be right so much But I do like it when you growl.. :wink:

Ok, so let me make sure I understand you here...

You are saying that since his "ideas are incorporated into countless applications of modern living, so his theories are well tested" therefore it is ok to believe it, though there isn't necessarily any physical proof of what he has said.

Hmmmm... You know what Cyracuz? There are many ideas of christianity that are "incorporated into countless applications of modern living so those "theories" are well tested" as well. So I guess we could say the same thing about that then too huh? Very Happy

LOL You try not to be right so much? That is so very kind of you. Smile

I guess you'll just have to be right more often then. :wink:

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What I meant is that an application that functions on the principals of relativity theory is a verification that the theory is at least partially true.
There is physical evidence to support Einstein's theories though, and it would probably be easier to just say that first off...

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There are many ideas of christianity that are "incorporated into countless applications of modern living so those "theories" are well tested" as well.

No. With 'application' I am referring to technology. Tv, refridgerator... All things that would not be possible were it not for E=MC2.

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Ok Cyracuz, let's test out a theory of mine here. I'll try to keep this short.

Early on in my "walk of faith" so to speak, I did not believe in tithing. Not one bit. Nope. Wouldn't give a dime to anyone except bill collectors. One day I lost one of my jobs and was down to making $80 a week, and I thought, "Huh, I guess now is as good a time as any to test out this "tithing" idea." So I did. I gave a whole whopping $8 a week at church, faithfully. I had nothing to lose at that point anyway. I couldn't even pay my car payment with $80 a week, let alone my rent and other bills. Or say... eating... LOL

Within a week of the first time I gave my whopping $8 people began to bring me things I needed. Mostly money and food. No, these weren't all church people or people I knew. The majority were strangers. People I had never met. People showing up on my doorstep with FOOD. Bags of food. Walking down the street and someone walks up and hands me $60 and say's "The Lord told me to give this to you." Sound crazy? I'm sure it does. It was crazy. I lived like that for three months and my bills got paid better in those three months than they ever had when I was working two jobs.

So... that is one theory of "christianity" that I personally tested and got results from. Real, tangible results that were completely unexplainable.

So what do you think of them apples? Cool

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Hep- Is it possible that people learned of your financial situation, and just wanted to be good neighbors? Perhaps some charity learned of your plight, and those folks wanted to help you out. I really doubt very strongly that people just came to your door with food and money out of the blue.

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LOL well phoenix, they did. I have nothing to gain here by lying. I'm not trying to win any of you all over to "christianity" by any means. However, that is one of the reasons I have such a hard time dismissing "God", because that really did happen. No joke. People I didn't know, had never met, had absolutely no relation to. I wouldn't blame you for doubting though. After all, it didn't happen to you. It seems completely unrealistic, and truthfully it is quite unrealistic to ask someone to believe something that seems so impossible. Yet that doesn't change the fact that it did happen... to me.

This is one of those things I was referring to when talking to timber about "experiential evidence". There are some things in life that just can't be explained no matter how you look at it. Sure, you can write me off as a "nut job", but please... do me a favor and look at my track record here before you do that. I haven't lied about anything concerning my life because well... I don't lie. I have no reason to lie. I have nothing to hide. Nothing to gain personally by telling any of you this, except of course that you all could write me off as a "nut job". Gosh... I hope you don't though. Cool

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While I believe heph is telling the truth, I do not think magical causes need be implied to explain her situation.
Experiential evidence is limited in that it generally cannot be repeated, and there are always an unknown amount of unknown factors at play. In her situation, anyone that knew her may have organized the flood of charity in an innumerable amount of ways, employing the help of an unknown amount of people, those people not necessarily knowing heph personally. They may have not wanted to make her uncomfortable so they kept their charitable efforts from her. (but not of course, from the eyes of their all seeing keeper of scores)
My point; Experiential 'evidence' is merely blind interpretation of things only partially known...
..Unless, of course..it is repeatable..at which point you can start to break it down and see how it ticks.

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heph wrote:

So... that is one theory of "christianity" that I personally tested and got results from. Real, tangible results that were completely unexplainable.

So what do you think of them apples?

I think them apples didn't fall of the christianity tree. On the tree of humanity christianity is but one branch.

The idea you are talking about reminds me of the concept of karma. By that I mean to say that the idea is one of human spirituality, not any one religion, since it is represented in all religions.

I will not speculate on reasons. Nor will I write it off to coincidence. It is, for the moment, inexplickable.

One interesting aspect of it, however, is the effect giving to charity has on the giver. By acting selflessly we are also unconciously priming ourselves to believe that others are capable of selfless action. In my own experience, this tends to make me 'lower my guard' and as a result connect more easily with others.

Because I am wondering. During this period when you recieved this much needed attention on the economical front, can it be that you also recieved an increased amount of attention from those around you on all fronts?

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Go(o)d & (D)evil

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