5
   

When Shutting Up isn't Cowardice

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 06:22 pm
That is too much at this time of night.

It sounds like bluster on first impressions but I'll have another read in the morning.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Dec, 2006 06:26 pm
Sleep soundly, little cupcake.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Dec, 2006 02:53 pm
Bernie-

You know very well that "Kruschev is a nuclear bomb". "Christianity is the end of civilization." "Apple computers are plows." are all pure assertion.

That SH was a one man WMD was a fact. I was only so uncareful and indiscriminate because I took for granted you would be aware of the evidence.

Quote:
criticizing without offering an alternative strategy may well be a luxurious condition, but it is no sort of logical fallacy.


It seems to me to be in view of the fact that something has to happen tomorrow and next year and so on and also the fact that we live in a planned society where decisions are taken all the time with a view to gain some end. It would only be a logical fallacy if history stopped right here.

I would expect my complaint about the beer to be shared by most others and that it would find its way back to the brewery. If I had words with the surgeon I would be offering a strategy I think.

What strategy do you suggest to the powers (the surgeon) to do something about the war (the sponge) in the body politic?

Quote:
the portion of your sentence I've put in red would be at home in Lawrence but is in no other sense helpful or meritorious here. To what leaders would it not apply? How? Why?


Nothing like Lawrence. Others use the word "will".

I think it was helpful in the debate.

It would not apply where a leader has to carry a large body of expert opinion before his will can prevail (the how) as in The Kremlin and in our forms of cabinet government supported by large bureaucracies. It isn't black and white. There are gradations. Iraq under SH's party and family and North Korea are extreme cases at the other end. Also Uganda under Amin.

The why is because we won it for ourselves at great cost in lives and destruction. Others will have to do the same. I don't think any nation has ever been encouraged and helped to win themselves our form of government than Iraq. Who is to say whether the costs of that help and encouragement are greater or less than the eventual cost would be without it. Not us.

Quote:
Further, it presumes a set of psychic and future-telling abilities on your part (and an apparent lack of humility as regards the accuracy of those skills) which will unsettle your grandmother and aunts if they get wind of this.


I'm afraid I don't understand that except as a smear.

Mu grandmothers and my aunts were and are very difficult to unsettle.

I will burden you again. What policy do you recommend from here in view of the statement about viewing "justice" from the point of view of practical advantage on another thread?

If you have none you could look like a member of a football defence arguing about who's fault the goal you conceded was rather than on the real business of stopping another one and on getting even.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Dec, 2006 10:03 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
spendi, You're the only one "out of the loop." Get used to it, because even your fellow Brits says so. You stand alone; how can anybody with such standing continue to think what you say has any worth or relevance?


Even your fellow Brits say so and therefore you must be wrong, for as we all know the majority opinion is the correct opinion.

Whether or not you "stand alone," it is clear that the narrow minded CI will allow your opinion only if it conforms with that of the majority.

So ironic as to border on a demonstration of the dim-witted.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 02:55 am
spendi

I'm afraid we are on completely different pages.

To the best of my ability, I'll try to answer your question re policy but you need to clarify the precise situation you wish me to address. Do you inquire as to what an American president might do as regards Iraq? Or is it some other problem as seen from some other viewpoint?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 05:51 am
Finn-

The majority opinion is not the same as the majority opinion on a thread.

Bernie-

I don't expect you to provide an answer. I wouldn't try myself either.
Neither of us know enough about the multitude of aims and possibilities.
I might incline to a much larger effort but that might not be possible for political reasons inside the US. Or even for technical reasons.

At the time the decision was taken I was opposed to the invasion on the grounds that I didn't think we had the will to deal with this type of enemy. When it turned out that we did have the will- the votes- I was in favour. I thought the situation had to be dealt with at some point and the least painful option was the earliest. Having taken the decision I see no option but to see it through.

Is 2-3% growth here a necessity for you? Is the health of the Dow Index on your list? Is Pakistan one of your concerns? Do you think the Saudi regime can hold? Will Turkey join the EEC and NATO? Does realpolitic concern itself with deaths? What oil price can you live with? What would China do? What do you think the psychological effect on the Islamic male would be of a democratic female in short skirts and kinky boots? Do you think the relocation of Isreal a runner? Are S. American governments biding their time? Is free speech here a weakness? What do we do about the seemingly unlimited supply of suicide bombers.

If I sat here all day I could go on and on. I don't see withdrawal as a possibility whoever gets elected in 2008. Only a change of spin.

It is the Mother of all Battles as the man said. Western will is being tested and it looks a bit effete to me. Nation means war doesn't it? Isn't sheer physical exhaustion the final arbiter?

You are up early.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 06:39 am
Nah, spendi. Only maniacs believe that their options are limited to the singular.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 08:47 am
spendius wrote:
Will Turkey join the EEC and NATO?


The European Economic Community (EEC) became in 1967 the European Community (EC) and in 1993 the European Union (EU).

Turkey became a NATO member in 1952.


Just to update your database.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 09:04 am
I haven't got a database Walt.

Good grief. Had Turkey been attacked we would have had to join in then? Who signed up for that?

Bernie-

Nah to what?

Obviously your second statement is true. Are you suggesting your administrations options were limited to the singular and thus that they are maniacs. Or not? Both would be an assertion.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 09:10 am
spendius wrote:
I haven't got a database Walt.

Well, you really should read and bear a bit more, in that case - e.g. about the EU


spendius wrote:
Good grief. Had Turkey been attacked we would have had to join in then? Who signed up for that?


http://i10.tinypic.com/2a8ntye.jpg
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 09:20 am
Blimey. Greece was the main suspect. Then what would we have done?

No wonder it's been kept quiet. Are these newly democratised countries in the east in NATO then. Some of them are in the EEC aren't they?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 09:45 am
spendius wrote:
Some of them are in the EEC aren't they?

Sometimes I'm really not sure whether you are serious or not. Are you witless or pretending to be witless? I'm banking on the latter - its just the why that I'm in the dark about.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 10:56 am
spendius wrote:
I haven't got a database Walt.

Good grief. Had Turkey been attacked we would have had to join in then? Who signed up for that?

Bernie-

Nah to what?

Obviously your second statement is true. Are you suggesting your administrations options were limited to the singular and thus that they are maniacs. Or not? Both would be an assertion.


Nah to most of of what you wrote. As Bush and team might consider their options singular (keep fighting until victory, whatever that might be) then that looks pretty maniacal.

There's no problem with someone making an assertion. The relevant question is whether the assertion is well argued/reasoned and whether it is backed up by education and evidence.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 03:17 pm
Bernie- ( and nimh)

There's no substance to discuss.

That's the luxury outside the loop.

I'm either witless or pretending to be and the administation of the world's only superpower "looks pretty maniacal".

Pub talk.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 05:42 pm
I was responding, obviously, to your reference that "Some of them are in the EEC aren't they?" - when the EEC, as Walter just pointed out, hasnt existed since 1967. That followed on the heels of your claim that you were completely unaware of what was meant by "WMD", after five years of its wall-to-wall usage by Bush and co and the media, and as such makes one wonder whether you are really totally ignorant, or whether you just pretend to be. I'm betting on the latter - I just dont have a clue why you do it. Perhaps you think it makes you look charmingly eccentric, anachronistic? (It doesnt. Vain, perhaps.)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 06:06 pm
Well nimh-

How do you define a WMD? Never mind the wall to wall usage which you assert that the President meant.

You seem to be discussing labels and making erudite points about their exact usage because you happen to know them.

We all call it the EEC. A bit like we call the alcohol dispensing unit the pub and the monopoly squeeze the wife.

Do you have a thing about labels as if they are reality.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Dec, 2006 07:23 pm
spendius wrote:
Well nimh-

How do you define a WMD?

Look back here.

spendius wrote:
Never mind the wall to wall usage which you assert that the President meant.

Urr.. what?

Reread the sentence: "..your claim that you were completely unaware of what was meant by "WMD", after five years of its wall-to-wall usage by Bush and co and the media".

spendius wrote:
Do you have a thing about labels as if they are reality.

No, I have a thing about people acting like fools, especially when I suspect they're just pretending.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 09:27 pm
old europe wrote:
  • Install the Greasemonkey extension from the Firefox add-ons website.
    (Greasemonkey allows to customize websites via scripts - more info on Wikipedia)
  • Restart your Firefox. You should see a little monkey in the bottom right corner of your browser....!




... now I need the greasemonkey to do one more thing ... can I convince it I'm right?

You know the happy world of quote quote quote ... I can ignore the poster of the original quote ... but the blinkin' idiot shows up in the nested quotes Evil or Very Mad

I feel like I'm playing a game of whack the bunny (but it's not the bunny, she's a honey).
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 10:00 pm
The monkey ain't that smart, ehBeth.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Dec, 2006 10:08 pm
ehBeth wrote:
old europe wrote:
  • Install the Greasemonkey extension from the Firefox add-ons website.
    (Greasemonkey allows to customize websites via scripts - more info on Wikipedia)
  • Restart your Firefox. You should see a little monkey in the bottom right corner of your browser....!




... now I need the greasemonkey to do one more thing ... can I convince it I'm right?

You know the happy world of quote quote quote ... I can ignore the poster of the original quote ... but the blinkin' idiot shows up in the nested quotes Evil or Very Mad

I feel like I'm playing a game of whack the bunny (but it's not the bunny, she's a honey).


Lol! Nested vipers?



The poor monkey hasn't got all day!
0 Replies
 
 

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