Wearing a veil for just one day ...

Miller wrote:

Quote:
I would think that a woman would roast in that getup in the summer.

Women who wear and have worn such garments have become acclimated to them, in much the same way that people who live in Maine have become acclimated to cold winter weather and residents of Florida have become acclimated to hot Florida summers.

Men have become used to wearing suits and ties in ninety degree weather. That does not mean that another type of summer wear would not be more appropriate. Custom often dictates something that would be better served by common sense.

I live in Florida, and am used to the long, hot summers. I won't even wear long pants in the summer. It would make me miserable. The thought of being totally covered up in black makes me positively ill.

India is hot, and the women wear loose, flowing saris, make of very light fabric, in light colors. That certainly seems like a more appropriate costume for sultry weather.

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Let's face it, it all boils down to men completely dominating women. It happened in Western countries a few hundred years ago and, to this day, in some hidden religious cults in Utah or BC.
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Women in those circumstances are so brainwashed that they love and defend those veils, as a dog brings the leash to his master to ask him to go for a walk.
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Western women have fought for and won near equality and are shocked to witness the treatment of women as chattel.
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Any partnership that is based on domination is inherently doomed.

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detano inipo- Great post......right on target!

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Quote:

Women in those circumstances are so brainwashed that they love and defend those veils, as a dog brings the leash to his master to ask him to go for a walk

So, you're equating an observant Muslim or Orthodox Jewish woman to a dog?

How ignorant of you.

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No, I think he was trying to get across the fact that they are somewhat brainwashed.

I agree.

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Thanks Phoenix. Now if only I could see your left eye!

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Most women wearing a veil in Germany are Germans from the former USSR while only a few Muslims here were one. (Especially teachers, from the moment onwards when they aren't allowed to do so Twisted Evil

)

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detano inipo wrote:

Thanks Phoenix. Now if only I could see your left eye!

Left eye??? There's supposed to be an eye on the left???

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What about high heels? Anyone wear them? Do they make sense in any practical manner? Are we "brainwashed" if we wear them?

I've seen too many people who appreciate their veils (in person and on paper, especially from books like "Women and Islam" and "Wombs and Alien Spirits") to just summarily dismiss their value.

Imagine that someone who doesn't normally wear high heels puts them on and writes an article about it. I imagine that sore toes, sore calves, tripping, lack of mobility, getting different reactions than usual, and feeling like an object would be just a few of the responses. Quite likely something about how MEN don't wear them and it's a way for men to assert their dominance.

I do agree that people should have a choice, I just think the choice should go both ways. (Anyone for outlawing heels?)

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Soz, it would be interesting to see if a veil wearing woman would choose to wear the veil, if they hadn't been brought up in such a strict, intolerant way.

They just see it as someting that they have to do, so just do it without question.

You can't say the same about the wearing of high heels, I'm afraid.

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I think there are a lot of parallels, actually.

There ARE lots of independent, strong, liberally-brought-up women who wear the veil -- and it's specifically on their behalf (I know several of them) that I say something. They're not these poor little oppresed lambs -- they have a choice and that's what they choose to do. It makes them feel good in one way or another.

Just like pinchy, impractical heels make lots of women feel good in one way or another.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Most women wearing a veil in Germany are Germans from the former USSR

That is something I didn't know..

On the veil associated with Islam, I don't really have any personal experience. I've read a bit, including Reading Lolita in Tehran, a book that gave me a little insight.

I'm reminded, though, of myself in the fifties. As some here know, I had been accepted as a postulant in an order of Catholic nuns just at the end of my high school years. This was back when the nuns wore heavy black habits, had wimples and veils. The order did have a section that did nursing/missionary work in India, and they wore the same habit but in white. It is hard for me now to recall that self; my opinions have changed radically over time. But I do remember a sense of "this is what God is asking of me" about the whole thing, including wearing the habit.

I never did wear the habit, as I didn't actually join the order, having fallen madly in love that seventeenth summer....

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I accompanied a school exchange programme to Hungary about ten years ago. In our group of fifteen girls (16 year olds) there were two muslims who wore the headscarf style veil (don't ask me the correct name - not interested). There was a disco at the Hungarian school on the last night - all innocent stuff, no alcohol, and purely done to say goodbye and thanks to the English visitors.

All the girls were soon bopping away, having a great time, apart from the two muslim girls, who just stood there on the balcony, looking down at the dancers.
When I asked why, they said they weren't allowed to dance in front of males.
They went off to the toilets about half an hour later, and one of the teachers went to see if they were OK.
One of the girls was sobbing her heart out, really upset that she couldn't join in with all her friends. She was shouting that she hated being told not to do things, and the other girl was calming her down, explaining that all this suffering was because of her religion blah blah etc.

Anyway, they didn't dance, didn't laugh and didn't do much else other than cry and argue, really.

In my heart of hearts, I hope that girl eventually rebelled against all this mysogonist bullsh*t, and is now living a good life as a free, independent woman somewhere.

Somehow, I doubt that.

Oh yes, they're brainwashed alright.

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sozobe wrote:

I do agree that people should have a choice, I just think the choice should go both ways. (Anyone for outlawing heels?)

That is exactly the point. In many areas of the world, women do NOT have a choice. I have no problem with a woman wearing a veil if she want to, but it needs to be a decision free of coercion.

In the 1950' and early 1960's, women wore high heels, and skirts to work. I read an article that really got to me. Seems that there was a woman who was a writer, who worked from home. At the last minute, her editor asked for some changes, and she had to get into the city very quickly. She did not have the time to change from the slacks and loafers that she was wearing at home.

She wrote about the freedom that she experienced for the first time in slacks and low heels. She said that she never realized how confining that high heels and tight skirts were. She talked about how she strode quickly and confidently, without the measured, mincing steps that she needed to do when in "business attire".

I think that article really opened my eyes. At the time, it was an epiphany for me!

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Let me make a very clear distinction:

Of course there are people who dislike wearing the veil. I don't think they should be made to wear it. Full stop.

I just don't think that every single person who wears a veil dislikes it, by a long shot.

Therefore, I think it should be the individual's decision, in either direction. That a person should be allowed to wear a veil if he or she chooses. (At issue in several places right now.) And I think calling it "brainwashing" is too strong and too dismissive of the person who chooses to wear a veil, unless you would call a person who chooses to wear high heels brainwashed, too.

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Agreed with that post, Phoenix.

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osso wrote:

Quote:

Reading Lolita in Tehran, a book that gave me a little insight.

I have read that. osso

I would also recommend Javadi Alley

x

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(I read "Reading Lolita..." too, had mixed feelings about it but more to do with style than content.)

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This particular girl didn't want to, but HAD to conform to the strict impositions placed upon her, not primarily by her religion, but because she was terrified of her family finding out.

We tried to tell them that they could dance if they wanted to, as nobody would say anything, but she refused, as she was basically terrified of the consequences.
She had two older brothers, and said that they had already punished her in the past (no details were given) for something she'd done.

Honour beatings and even killings, are not exactly rare in Britain, usually directed against women.
In Afghanistan, before they were jokingly "liberated", women woud regularly be beaten, simply for showing an ankle.

You tell me what percentage of these women are honesly wearing the veil because of their own FREE choice, as opposed to being afraid of the consequences within their own family/community.
If they are brought up from day one in such a fearful environment, I very much doubt if they are supporting the wearing of a veil, purely by FREE choice alone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5311244.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2006_03_wed_03.shtml

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

If they are brought up from day one in such a fearful environment, I very much doubt if they are supporting the wearing of a veil, purely by FREE choice alone.

That's precisely the point, though -- that there are people who WEREN'T raised in that environment who have chosen to take the veil. That they're doing it sometimes in spite of their family and friends, not because of.

Rather than rattling off more personal anecdotes, here is the first result of a Google search for "why I chose to wear the veil":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3110368.stm

The beginning:

Quote:

Before leaving my house every morning for work I tie my hair up and wrap a piece of material around my hair, covering every part of me from my hairline, to my neck.

The piece of cloth is much more than material to me- it's my identity.

I am a British Muslim woman, and two years ago I decided to start wearing the hijab (headscarf).

Like thousands of Muslim women across the world - the hijab has become part of me, and I wear it with confidence and pride.

I made the decision to wear the hijab after going on my own personal journey to learn more about my religion, Islam.

The journey started a year before the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre in New York, but my quest for knowledge accelerated after September 11th when the Muslim community around the world and in the UK were under intense scrutiny by the politicians and the media.

Solidarity

It was then that I decided that I wanted to be a visible Muslim.

I wanted people who walked past me in the street to know that I am a Muslim and that I am proud of my religion, heritage and culture.

In many ways I saw the hijab as an act of solidarity with Muslim women all around the world.

Here I am an educated Muslim woman in the West, and even though I have no idea what it's like to be an Iraqi, Bosnian, Somalian or Palestinian woman, I know that we share an identity through Islam and through the hijab.

Since September 11th there has been a huge increase in the number of women, particularly young women who started wearing the hijab. And from what the women tell me, most do so by choice.

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Wearing a veil for just one day ...

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