NOT_SO_INTELLIGENT DESIGN, A Tally

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Evidence of Intelligent Design is originated by the reference blamed on William PAley who , in 1802 , made up the "Discarded watch found on the beach is proof that it was designed by an intelligent being, So too, is there evidence that , from design alone, life was the product of a similar creative force by a deity".

Im here to try to tally up the "Not-So-Intelligent-Design" features of life, be it examples of unique adaptation and biogeography : to examples of organism morphology and structure that, had it really been designed, it could have been done a whole lot better.

Now this is Science and Math, not Philosophy of religion. I will be fair but a brutal master. I have no care if you wish to argue whether something is designed or not, whether data supports a naturalistic origin or not. Thats all ok. Please lets not debate the following:
eg

1"This is rank materialistic philosophy" --(To that I say no **** Sherlock, please lets not become masters of the obvious)

2. "The Bible doesnt support these data" (See comment in Number 1)

3. "Things are too complex to have originated by natural selection or molecular self assembly" .(If this argument is opened, it shall be the responsibility of the point raiser to provide copious evidence of that statement, no easy ride based on conjecture and baseless assertion)

4Intelligent Design is Not Creationism( Go to some religious thread and argue that one. ID is deeply fundamental to Creationism, deal with it)

________________________I SHALL BEGIN WITH ONE EXAMPLE_____

Beetles have wings that are covered by a hard horny shell that connects from a cephalothoracic hinge.(If you look at a beetle , it looks like a little tank with its head and wings covered by protective armor, called an ELYTRA). The elytra is opened and the two sets of wings then allow the beetle to take off. Look at a ladybug and see how before she takes off, she opens her little elytra and like with flaps extended, takes off
However, in many island beetles , the elytra is fused so the beetle cannot fly at all . The wings are perfectly formed beneath the elytra but unless someone would cut the elytra sagitally, the beetle remains on land as a hiker. Now, is this an adaptation to a predatorless island? Is it an irreducible complexity, or what/

Please, , if this thread lives, lets try to find single examples rather than posting long URLs that may or may not present any information. Id prefer your own observations rather than a link. If you want a link to post, please give us your take on the "Not so Intelligent Desing feature" first, then the link.

I hope that theres some interest from the many sides of this issue.

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Interesting thread, Farmerperson.

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yeh but, youre supposed to pitch in. How bout some examples from human anatomy?

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As a young sailor on Midway Island, I was fascinated by the gooney birds. They had to run to take off, and often smacked into the sides of buildings doing so. Landing, they tumbled head over heals. Talk about intelligent design.

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The female reproductive system is the epitome of un-intelligent design. It could only have been designed by a sadist, because even an idiot could figure out that the pelvic opening needs to be larger than the infant head that must be squeezed through it. Cephalo-pelvic disproportion is lethal to both woman and baby without surgical intervention, and half a million women still die from this and other pregnancy-related problems each year. IMO we should have been designed with a marsupial pouch so that we could keep tabs on the growth of the fetus and know what color to paint the nursery without going in for an ultrasound.

Then we have blood oozing out of our vaginas several days every month (which goes on for decades after our prime childbearing years), hormone imbalances, useless leg hair, breast and ovarian cancer, endometriosis, tubal pregnancies, and venereal diseases, none of which would exist if we were the product of intelligent design.

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My back and knees wouldn't already be turning to crap at a mere twenty-six years of age...

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hi Farmerman,

If you see a car being driven about town with one fender off, and another crumpled, one of the tail lights burnt out and the roof liner inside hanging down til it touches the driver's head, the vinyl of the seats cracked and a home for moths and cheerios, the wiper fluid doesn't come thru the tube properly to wash the windshield and some of the tires are bald, 2 of the 6 plugs are fouled and only fire intermittently, the trany slips in and out of gear at odd times and the trunk can be opened by a screwdriver, but the hood MUST be opened by a tire iron----

------would you say 'What a ridiculous design for a car!' ?

The Bible does (sorry you don't want it discussed, but it's on topic) explain why things as we see them NOW are not as they were made ORIGINALLY.

OK all done. Continue with your strawman.

(btw how does evolution explain a beetle evolving wings that he can't use? Where's the 'survival benefit' of these wings and why were they selected for?)

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Terry,
I guess the "Designer" just wanted to remind the women of what lowly creature you are. Don't take it personally.
Anyway, it's not all rosy for the men, either. A truly "intelligent" designer would have installed some kind of shield to protect my balls.

(sorry, farmerman)

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ps
I know I spelled a word wrong; too late to edit.

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real life wrote:

(btw how does evolution explain a beetle evolving wings that he can't use? Where's the 'survival benefit' of these wings and why were they selected for?)

A beetle with elytra migrates to the island. Where it came from the elytra were very helpful, but on this particular island they are not helpful because there is a special frog that is very good at snatching them out of the air when they fly. So the beetles learn to only walk, which works out fine because there happens to be plenty of nutrients accessible by walking on this island. The beetles with functioning elytra probably tend to use their wings to fly, and thus die, so this gives natural selection for beetles that have non-working elytra. Evolution provides this natural obvious answer to the question of why they have non-functioning elytra. ID does not.

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Terry wrote:

The female reproductive system is the epitome of un-intelligent design. It could only have been designed by a sadist, because even an idiot could figure out that the pelvic opening needs to be larger than the infant head that must be squeezed through it. Cephalo-pelvic disproportion is lethal to both woman and baby without surgical intervention, and half a million women still die from this and other pregnancy-related problems each year. IMO we should have been designed with a marsupial pouch so that we could keep tabs on the growth of the fetus and know what color to paint the nursery without going in for an ultrasound.

Then we have blood oozing out of our vaginas several days every month (which goes on for decades after our prime childbearing years), hormone imbalances, useless leg hair, breast and ovarian cancer, endometriosis, tubal pregnancies, and venereal diseases, none of which would exist if we were the product of intelligent design.

To expand on the line of thought opened above...

This is especially true of the Homo sapiens female, who must birth an infant whose brain is still growing -- who has surpassed a size supportable by the female anatomy before its brain has begun developing. Other mammalian species are capable of far more prodigious numbers or size of offsrping, but whose offspring are far less intelligent. Rats, for example, or cattle. Animals who make up in fecundity of ferocity for a fundamental lack of intelligence.

Which brings my thoughts around to something that I've been encountering lately, and that is the reproductive anatomy of the female quadruped. Cattle, especially, but this is true of all ruminants in particular and other quadrupeds in general, have an absurdly unintelligent design feature: the anus is oriented directly above the vulva.

Any intelligent designer would put the vulva -- entrance to the tract that must bring forth new life, must incubate the transition from zygote to blastula to multicellular to multiorgan organism -- in the direct gravitational path of the anus -- responsible for the deposition of undigestible foodstuff and processed toxins. No intelligent designer would have the toilet run directly into the oven. Even the most inept DYI house-renovating soul would not have to think to steer clear of that sort of mistake.

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stuh505 wrote:

real life wrote:
(btw how does evolution explain a beetle evolving wings that he can't use? Where's the 'survival benefit' of these wings and why were they selected for?)

A beetle with elytra migrates to the island. Where it came from the elytra were very helpful, but on this particular island they are not helpful because there is a special frog that is very good at snatching them out of the air when they fly. So the beetles learn to only walk, which works out fine because there happens to be plenty of nutrients accessible by walking on this island. The beetles with functioning elytra probably tend to use their wings to fly, and thus die, so this gives natural selection for beetles that have non-working elytra. Evolution provides this natural obvious answer to the question of why they have non-functioning elytra. ID does not.

Too funny.

A single beetle arrives on an island where he is at a distinct DISadvantage (hmmm, not looking good for Evolution, but wait.......) due to a previously unencountered predator, Frogus Specialus ( no frogs where he came from? or they were just all really clumsy, not special? ).

Despite the fact that he's now a sitting duck (ok beetle) he manages to multiply greatly over many generations until his descendants 'learn' to walk only (thus going against their natural instinct and breeding) instead of flying.

Eventually, some of his descendants turn out to be 'handicapped' i.e. their wings won't open, but it works to their advantage since the family is walking now. ( I'd say it was oddly providential , but that's probably not allowed, right? Still it reminds you of a Hollyweird movie.)

So the handicapped beetles overcome their situation and FINALLY after (how many?) generations, there is a 'survival advantage' and Evolution has done it again.

Yer right, stuh. This is a natural obvious answer. Wow. I'm enlightened.

Where has this Special Frog been all my life? I feel like a new man. Is there a Special Frog group I can join?

I would like to be a founding member of the Special Frog Evolutionists Club. Anyone else seen the light? We could do a 12 step and everything.

Hello, I'm RL and I'm a believer in the Special Frog.........

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V. nice, stuh.

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rl, you're failing to account for the reproductive strategy of insects, which is to produce dozens of hundreds or thousands of individuals from a handful in a single generation. Thus, the degree of variability available in a single generation far exceeds that generated in dozens of mammalian generations.

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real life wrote:

A single beetle arrives on an island where he is at a distinct DISadvantage (hmmm, not looking good for Evolution, but wait.......) due to a previously unencountered predator, Frogus Specialus ( no frogs where he came from? or they were just all really clumsy, not special? ).

This is just one hypothetical example of many possible ones. But going from this example:

I didn't say a single beetle. It's more like a migration of at least several thousand. Of course there are different predators in this different area. Alternatively it could be that the predator migrated to the area or evolved better ability to catch the flying ones.

Quote:

Despite the fact that he's now a sitting duck (ok beetle) he manages to multiply greatly over many generations until his descendants 'learn' to walk only (thus going against their natural instinct and breeding) instead of flying.

That's not what I said, you ignoramus. Most of the beetles are killed off quickly. The ones with defective wings, or who's offspring are defective for genetic reasons, tend to stay alive with higher probability. Thus the gene for defective wings is passed on.

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Were there any turtles around before the Fall of Man? Those poor suckers get turned over and they're ruined. I think an intelligent designer would at least offer periodical upgrades. I know I would. Poor turtles.

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Im gratified that weve got this amount of discussion and yes, there are several lines of evidence for the reasons of fused elytra, and thank you Terry fo a thought out discourse.
RL, your rusted and broken car argument has little validity in a discussion of radiation of life.If Id see different Chevy models unique to each island of the Galapogos, maybe wed have something to talk about neh?
Youve made a twist on PAley and Richard Johnstons argyuments with your addition of a worn out car.
Lets look at the wonders of biogeography.There are 14 species of island unique Finches on the GAlapogos that,, because the islands have never been attached to a mainland (they are, like the Hawaians, a series of about 14 major cinder cones of extinct volcanoes , about 650 miles from the mainland of South America, these finches must have been isolated when a group of foundation species migrated from the mainland , or , like the tortoises , were rafted on large mats of flotsam that tore from the mainland in storms. (This is still going on). Darwin, who was a convinced Creationist until he looked at the evidence, didnt even bother to note all his locations for his finch specimens. He assumed that there was little reason , since these birds were obviously all different groups (
As Darwin himself said
about the Galapogos.
..."Here almost every product of land and water bears the unmistakeable stamp of the American Continent,There are 26 land birds, and 25 of them are ranked by Mr (John) Gould as distinct species, supposed to have been created here: yet the close affinity of most of these birds to American species in every character, in their habits, gestures, and tones of voice, was manifest...why should this be so? why should species which are supposed to have been created in the Galapogos, and nowhere else, bear so plain a stamp of affinity to those created in America

Islands from around the world have species endemic to that locale and nowhere else. Many of the islands are fairly recent geologically so the development of separate species in an archipeligo must have entailed a separate Creation well after Creation week was over. This of course, by evidence alone, falls down . Wheres the Intelligence behind biogeographic speciation?

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Cyphercat mentioned the human back. This is a good case of unintelligent design. Do we not walk upright on a back designed more for quadrapedal use?

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Lordosis is just one of the inconveniences of the Creator not finishing a job properly, yet its totally consistent with small incremental steps that natural selection shamelessly preaches..

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fm wrote-

Quote:

Beetles have wings that are covered by a hard horny shell that connects from a cephalothoracic hinge.(If you look at a beetle , it looks like a little tank with its head and wings covered by protective armor, called an ELYTRA). The elytra is opened and the two sets of wings then allow the beetle to take off. Look at a ladybug and see how before she takes off, she opens her little elytra and like with flaps extended, takes off
However, in many island beetles , the elytra is fused so the beetle cannot fly at all . The wings are perfectly formed beneath the elytra but unless someone would cut the elytra sagitally, the beetle remains on land as a hiker. Now, is this an adaptation to a predatorless island? Is it an irreducible complexity, or what/

Yes- it's an IR. (I used that acronym, partly because I like acronyms and partly to save threaders who don't wish to type two long words out the botheration of making it harder to concentrate on where the sentence is going.

Like we use NATO. If somebody starts a conversation -{heaven forbid}- "The North Atlantic Teaty Organisation should be blah blah blah" we would glaze over.

A sort of a little tweak in the evolution of your new thread which I know, and perhaps even some viewers do, is bound to be a load of fossilised bullshit. Parthenon zone circa 2 1/2 grand ones BC. (BlessHis Cottonsocks). )

What it is is that there's a certain group of people (often quite loosely connected) who have invested their whole life's study in the aspects of life you are concerning yourself with and for which they need a megaphone to spray this knowledge in order to facilitate an invidious comparison with us mere mortals, and that area of study is slipping down the ratings. The audience is diminishing. Maybe the grants too.

As Bob said-" Inside the museums infinity goes up on trial".

I've seen him sing it as if the verdict is guilty of the despicable crime of BORING EVERYBODY STIFF.

Do you know that verse fm? It really is very good. That doesn't look back.

It's an attempt to talk your position in society up to the level you feel you deserve and starting another thread is a sign that it hasn't been going too well lately what with one thing and another.

Everybody knows that beetles look nothing "like a little tank with its head and wings covered by protective armor,". Not a scorrick of similarity unless you get down to molecules. And if you get down to molecules they look like MT Everest. The armour is not that protective. You must have stamped on a few in your time.

Can't you see that your second paragraph is based on what you think are beneficial adaptations.

It must have suited those beetles which only had half formed elytra to so do. Redundant wings. Like your car is redundant when you're nodding in the rocking chair listening to a talk by Professor Dawkins.

Isn't the survival of those beetles proof that they are successfully adapted
to the environment they are in. How do you know anything about that. Just because you think flying is superior to not doing has nothing to do with those beetles. I've seen lots of ladybirds take off and it looks pretty hard work. Evolution avoids work. It does the least necessary.

Why are ladybirds so brightly coloured. Most of them must get eaten up otherwise they would be 1000 ft deep by now. That would seem a dysfunctional adaptation unless one might liken it to the half formed elytra
and see it as some form of redundancies buried deep within the IR.

Elytra is your word. The beetles don't know anything about that either.

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NOT_SO_INTELLIGENT DESIGN, A Tally

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