God; puzzle solved.

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The issue of God is not a question of faith. It is a question of logic.

For the sake of the experiment I ask that you forget all you know and all you think you know about God.

Then we can state that logically it makes sense to think of the entire world as a sigularity. I am not talking about consciousness, just an abstract idea of 'everything as one'.

Further, we can logically state that this 'everything' is alive. The basis of this argument is that I am alive, and my existence is dependent on all the forces of the universe. Gravity, sunlight and so on. So life cannot be considered an attribute soley of the living entity, since it's surroundings are neccesary for it's continued survival.

Now we have a logical definition of the term God that does not defy science, and that does not contradict anything that's said about God in the bible. So God can be clarified as 'the living everything'.

Then it is true that God is omnicent and omnipotent, because within God all things can be known and done, and nothing can be so outside it.

It is also true that God is everywhere. True by definition.

It is definitly true that God works in mysterious ways.

It is true that man was created in it's image, because we are the result of the inner workings of this 'living everything', and the creature human is a direct result of all the components of this 'living everything' working on eachother.

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Re: God; puzzle solved.

Cyracuz wrote:

God; puzzle solved

Well, I don't think that's true.
I liked your idea of all matter as "singularity" (i.e. there are scientific theories that subatomic particles throughout space may be the manifestation of one and the same thing, even though they appear to be separate/individual in space-time...)

... but then you lost me when you stated the following, which didn't have any reasonable evidence backup:

Cyracuz wrote:

...we can logically state that this 'everything' is alive...

The truth is that we know very little what consciousness is and how it relates to space/time/matter.

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c_logic

My reasoning in stating that this everything is alive was as follows:

Living creatures, all of them, are dependent on ther environment to be alive. Thus life is a result of the combined forces of this 'everything'. Without the sun, life would not exist. Not without water, gravity and other cosmic forces. If this is true, then life is, as I said, not an attribute of the living entity, but of everything that was needed to bring it about and sustain it.

In a less elaborate definition of life, where 'life' is narrowly defined as 'activity' the universe is most definitely alive.

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What about 'replication'?

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What about it? Confused

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Cyracuz wrote:

Living creatures, all of them, are dependent on ther environment to be alive....
Without the sun, life would not exist. Not without water, gravity and other cosmic forces...

That is correct - life is dependent on those things.

Counsciousness may very well be the aspect of everything in some sense, but the problem is that we don't really know the true context of matter, and we don't know the context of consciousness.
Again, our lives do depend on all those things you mentioned... but to say that therefore everything is alive is wrong.

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Does the universe replicate itself or create anything new?

I understand the answer may be yes. I'm just curious to see where it goes.

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I understand the question now neo. I am compelled to answer with one. Can any individual cell in my brain know if I'm capable of reproducing myself?

I think we have to leave the question of reproduction open for the time being, unless anyone's got a better grasp on it.

c_logic wrote:

Quote:

but to say that therefore everything is alive is wrong.

Yes. Luckily that is not exactly what I meant. If we consider this 'everything' as an organism, as one singularity, we can logically say that it is alive. By comparison, there are parts of my body that are 'dead' matter, but they are part of a living organism. Teeth, for example.

To say that everything is alive without regarding 'everything' as a singularity is wrong. I agree on that.

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Cyracuz wrote:

To say that everything is alive without regarding 'everything' as a singularity is wrong. I agree on that.

So you're saying that this "singularity" is alive, which gives birth to both living beings and matter?

Why does the singularity have to be alive? Why can't it be Not Alive?

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Life originating from non life? Why that . . . that's (shudder) evolution. Laughing

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neologist wrote:

Life originating from non life? Why that . . . that's (shudder) evolution.

Indeed.

However, besides the whole biological evolution aspect, consciousness itself is a whole other beast...

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c_logic wrote:

Why does the singularity have to be alive? Why can't it be Not Alive?

Well it could. But then the word describing it would be 'the universe'. We're more or less familiar with that term.

I am trying to attain an understanding of what God might be through logic thinking, and when I propose this 'living everything' it is not as an actual entity, but as an abstract idea that may be helpful in understanding just what hides behind the term 'God'.

I am also assuming that whenever some tale doesn't make sense, it is not because it is neccesarily wrong. It might be because I have the wrong angle, or lacking knowledge or reasoning skills.

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Cyracuz,

This looks a lot like the kind of rationalization you see from people who intellectually reach a point where they realise that no gods exist, yet they've spent a lifetime thinking that good people don't run around being atheists.

I know that sounds rude, but I can't think of a gentle way to put it without muddling the point.

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Quote:

Can any individual cell in my brain know if I'm capable of reproducing myself?

Good question and I often ask myself, what I consider to be an extended form of this question, regularly. That is, what can any individual element of a system know about the system as a whole? To flesh it out, can any member of a system, "step outside" the system, to comprehend the system? My instinctual reaction to this is a frustrating no, which I definitely see as a problem of angle, position or view with respect to myself and the universe. Not therefore, in terms of right and wrong.

The natural nature of my mind to connect events and perceive order muddles with my thinking on this topic as well. Very interesting stuff on this and the "Define God" topic though.

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Ashers, my answer to that same question is "possibly, yes". Creatures that are capable of imagination and abstract thought are capable of doing so.

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The more I think about it, the more I'd like to think so but I'm not sure it makes sense. I'm thinking about what abstract thought actually is and how it fits in with my "angle" on the world now of course...

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Eorl wrote:

Quote:

This looks a lot like the kind of rationalization you see from people who intellectually reach a point where they realise that no gods exist, yet they've spent a lifetime thinking that good people don't run around being atheists.

Well, I've only lived about one third of an average human lifetime, and from the very beginning of it I've rejected the idea of God. The last few years have strengthened my belief that the God of the various religions, in the way we interpret them today, is a fantasycreature. Yet I find the same indications in religions from all times, from all over the world. My ideas in this topic are not in conflict with any of those, and I am operating under the assumption that the enterpretation of the biblical God is a misconception. What if the bible doesn't mean anything but what I've written above when it refers to God.

It is a possibillity, and an interesting one as far as I'm concerned, because from this point of view alot of the bible actually makes sense.

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Indeed, the God puzzle is solved!!

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jhcjp.htm

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Re: God; puzzle solved.

Cyracuz wrote:

The issue of God is not a question of faith. It is a question of logic.

For the sake of the experiment I ask that you forget all you know and all you think you know about God.

Then we can state that logically it makes sense to think of the entire world as a sigularity. I am not talking about consciousness, just an abstract idea of 'everything as one'.

Further, we can logically state that this 'everything' is alive. The basis of this argument is that I am alive, and my existence is dependent on all the forces of the universe. Gravity, sunlight and so on. So life cannot be considered an attribute soley of the living entity, since it's surroundings are neccesary for it's continued survival.

Now we have a logical definition of the term God that does not defy science, and that does not contradict anything that's said about God in the bible. So God can be clarified as 'the living everything'.

Then it is true that God is omnicent and omnipotent, because within God all things can be known and done, and nothing can be so outside it.

It is also true that God is everywhere. True by definition.

It is definitly true that God works in mysterious ways.

It is true that man was created in it's image, because we are the result of the inner workings of this 'living everything', and the creature human is a direct result of all the components of this 'living everything' working on eachother.

Very interesting Cyracuz. Very interesting indeed. I've got one question for you. How did this god that "is" everything and is "in" everything come to be?

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This is a tricky question hephzibah.

The concept of time is one relevant only within this god in question. God has no past, no future. It it all time comes together as one moment. And this moment is infinite. That says nothing of how long it is, just that it is without beginning or end.

So my answer is that it didn't come to be. It just is, in an endless cycle.

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God; puzzle solved.

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