Ancient Mapping

Just out of curiosity and because your quest seemed interesting, I searched "ancient map" under Google Images and came up with some very cool maps.
Maybe one will be the link you are looking for:

Ancient Map Images

You'd probbaly have better luck searching for "Ancient Cartographic symbols" (Cartography is the art of making maps).

This collection of maps might be useful:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/AncientL.html

hey thanks bunches

I searched google and found the one site earlier, but guess I was wanting to make this less of a work than it is turning into. It may take me as long to create the maps as it is writing the books. (sigh)

After looking at the links you gave me (thanks), I have about boiled it down to KISS. (Keep it simple and sweet). From the ancient maps I looked at, it seems there is no real guide to what symbols to use. Obviously mountains, forests, rivers, bodies of water etc are easy enough.

I appreciate your quick replies.

ciao

ps...fishin....love your avatar.

Herema

Below is an image of the Catalan-Este Map, produced in the mid-15th century.



Note the use of graphic images, such as the tents with men wearing turbans sitting in front of the tents, to represent Muslim cities. You might consider something fanciful of this type.

Setanta--

Great visual aid.

Herema--

Consider instructing your mapmaker plunking his city, his country down in the middle of the known universe.

That certainly depends on when this "ancient" map should have been drawn ...

Hey you all are super! I love the map image. tnx

The map I am trying to draw is back whenever.....you know kings and queens days...no modern stuff like electricity, cars, etc. But they are cultured people mostly. The books are part fantasy and part fiction adventure which leaves a lot of room for literary license. But after nearly completing the second book of the trilogy, I realized there is a lot of moving about between the four kingdoms by certain people (main characters) and it would provide the readers a better understanding if they had a visual like a map. The map is not absolutely required, but I think it would add a nice touch of credibility to the stories.

This website is great to get information about most anything from art to computers, family etc. tnx again.

Any others have map images? I need all the suggestions I can get. I like the images on the map you posted, Noddy24. It gives me some ideas. I was going to create crests for each kingdom and use them on the map for identifying each kingdom.

Ahem.

Setanta gets credit for posting the map. I only admired it.

Map for "The Hidden Stars" by Madeline Howard
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/madeline-howard/


Fantasy mapmaking 101 with examples
http://www.fantasymaps.com/101/

And there's software for it:
http://hiddenway.tripod.com/images/maps/

P

oops, my bad Noddy....sorry Setanta...I really liked the map.

thank you so much, Pauligirl for the links. I explored the fantasy maps link and found it very useful. It seems I just have to take the bull by the horns and get this done. I do have some sketching talents to my advantage, so......just get the determination to attempt to make the final draft of the maps.

I will still check here from time to time to see if anyone else has anything to offer.

thanks

Ancient map making was distinctive with respect to region, racial group, ethnic boundaries, tribal societies, and even individuals. If you are intelligent enough, you can come up with your own iconographs and emulate the ancient cultural mentality of those long lost societies.

I know it seems like decades since coming here to read responses...but you can understand where a writer's obsession travels.....

thanks Chris! I like your advice. As the books grow and mature, the map seems to be taking care of itself. I need the map to keep ME straight more than reveal anything about the stories being told. But, I think in the end of it all, the maps will add to the credibility of my Empire which consists of four kingdoms and a surprise in the third book of the trilogy.

Now....if I can just get more information on the correct terms to use for royal rank.......without sounding modern or too stuffy......I am doing more homework and research studies than I ever did years ago in school. (smile)

me agapi kai filia

Emperor

King/Prince (there are princes who are the children of Kings, but Prince can be a separate rank equivalent to a King--Ceasar Augustus was "Princeps," which meant "first citizen," and the term Prince derives from that--obviously, as an emperor, he made the term Prince into one of the highest ranks)

Archduke

Duke

Marquis (Marquess to the English)

Count (Earl in the English system)

Baron

*******************************************

Kings, Princes, Archdukes and Dukes could and often did hold lands and powers in their own rights, in European systems of nobility. On the other hand, the Holy Roman Emperor was seen as having the right to appoint Kings and Dukes, and others of "royal" rank. The Holy Roman Emperors for the last centuries of the HRE (the Habsburgs) were also the hereditary Archdukes of the four Austrias (Inner and Further Austria, and Upper and Lower Austria--don't ask). The Elector of Brandenburg cut a deal with the HRE to get his son recognized as King, and chose for him to be King of Prussia, because the Hohenzollern's held Prussia by right of conquest, and so, as Kings of Prussia, could not be "demoted" or replaced by the HRE, since they would hold their kingdom independently of his authority. They simply need the HRE to recognize their status as Kings.

Marquis, Counts/Earls and Barons almost never held their lands and powers independently, but were the vassals of a more powerful lord. They held their lands "of" the King or the Duke, and would literally place their hands within the hands of the liege lord (the Duke or King) to indicate that the "held their lands of" that person.

All of this can be complicated by the many titles recognized within the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (full official name). Landgrave, Rhinegrave, Margrave and Elector were all titles of varying rank (Electors were those who had the right to vote for the Holy Roman Emperor, and might hold an entirely different rank within their own lands).

The list above is just a basic, simple (and oversimplified) list of aristocratic relationships. Some barons, although at the bottom of the nobility totem pole could be very powerful. The de Coucy family of Picardy in northern France never claimed any noble patent or rank, but remained one of the most powerful and respected families of France in the middle ages--simply because they held and managed well vast and rich estates. Their motto--Je tiens ("I hold")--said it all. You could think what you liked of them, their word was law within their own lands.

It might make a point of interest in your book to have someone such as that--someone who makes no claim to nobility, but whose estates and loyal vassals are of such great extent that he or she is a power to be reckoned with, even if not an aristocrat.

I don't think you really can generalise that, as Set noted correctly, especially, when you look at the German situation, which was quite a bit different to what Set pointed out.

Just two examples:
- we had quite a number of 'earls' who owned and ruled an independent country (they later [18th/19th century] sometimes became princes or (arch-)dukes. Examples Earl of Oldenburg, Earl of Waldeck, Earl of Rietberg
- the (Prince)-Electors were the second but highest ranked nobility re empire, no matter if they were laymen or bishops.

Seaking about complecated:

when you go to regions, you'll find situation even other historians from different parts of Germany don't really know: that's the "kind of nobility" among farmers/peasants:
- in the bishopry of Münster, the local nobility was called 'Droste' = bishop's reeve. They had (sometimes huge) castles - but only got the titles Graf (earl), Freiherr (baron) ... as late as 18th century.
Below that were those free peasants,who had own land, didn't have to join the bishop's army - 'Schulte' (which translate nowadays to 'mayor').
To distinuish them, the gt the affix of their place = Schulte Hinteler.

A couple of miles more to the east, in protestant country, there were no Schultes but 'Meyer' - the addfix was "at place", e.g. 'Meyer zu Eving'

Both forms are nowadays normal family names (My grandfather put down the 'Schulte' with 'royal approval'.)

I don't think anyone has posted a link to this site yet: Strange Maps (the name says it all).


As setanta and Walter point out, it's a complicated situation. Fortunately for you, you're inventing your world, so you can make it as simple or as complicated as you like.

For royalty (i.e. families that are actually sovereign), the titles might be: emperor (and variants: tsar, kaiser, etc.); king; sultan; shah; and so forth.

Nobles of lesser rank could also be sovereign in their territories. In the Holy Roman Empire, even someone as low on the totem pole as a knight (Ritter) could be quasi-sovereign. Also, in Germany and other places, a prince wasn't necessarily the son of a king: "prince" (Erbprinz or Fürst) could be a hereditary title, passed down from father to son. That's still the case in Monaco, for instance.

In a typical royal household, the players would look something like this: king; queen; dowager queen (widow of the previous king); crown prince (eldest son of the king); other princes and princesses; dukes or archdukes (brothers or cousins of the king); regent (in case the king is a minor).

In general, the nobility was ranked thus: king; prince; duke; marquis; count (English: earl); viscount; baron. Baronet, ranking below baron, is an English title that is heritable but is not noble. Knights, also not a noble title, would rank at the bottom. Regional variations are numerous, so this list is only a general guide.

thanks you guys!!! This is wonderful!

Joe...I loved that link! I stuck it in my favorites for later researching and comparing. Those are some crazy maps! Some will help me with icons and the like to make my map look old and crude.

My Empire consists of four kingdoms (including the Empire itself as one of them) They originally split off from other distant kingdoms because of war, size, or the like. They all were seeking new land to settle and the Empire set up first but allowed the other kingdoms to be established later. They are all allies (for now). The Empire has fallen (long story....uh..book) leaving three kingdoms remaining. There is one male survivor to the Empire throne. Very few people know of his title and position. He is now the Emperor without a throne and secretly wiggles his way into the position next under my main character, a king. The "Emperor's" title (unless I learn a different name) is "Grand Duke." Other lesser ranking people who have no signficant place, I have decided to tag as "nobles"

I have one who is given the title Marquess and his wife Marchioness.....after their appointment, I then address them as Lord and Lady.

Does this all sound credible? All of your information sure helped.

This is a trilogy ( need three books to complete the stories) with each book containing 350 to 400 pages.

The stories require few details about who owned what...such as barons and knights. The story mainly revovles around the kings, princes, clerge, princess, betrayal, discovery of secrets which led to the destruction of the Empire and possibilites of rebuilding it.

It has been quite an undertaking and adventure.

Thanks again everyone for the info, links and advice.

I am open for any and all the info etc that I can get......

me agapi kai filia

Herema

A good introduction to European titles of nobility can be found here.


"Lord" and "Lady" appear to be the correct forms for referring to a Marquess and Marchioness in speech.

Everything you ever wanted to know about noble forms of address

thank you again, Joe. Those are both wonderful links. I had already been to the first one, but the second one I had not seen yet. It has been a good read so far and seems I am not too far off on my royal family and the like.

I am trying to keep the plot simple, yet credible. I want to remember it is a fiction story with a great story to be told without getting too heavy into things that would make it read as a history book. It seems there is a fine line between fiction history and real history when it comes to reading a book of any kind, though.

Thanks again for all the help here. It has been very helpful, indeed!