Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 08:05 am
First of all, Naima - thanks for the poem. I'll always keep it safe. In a way, it asks me a question I've been pondering myself.

btw - I don't agree that I'm 'scholarly' (I'm no academic) - and if you get to my age and still don't know a noun from a pronoun, well….

I hope my writing encourages you to look at other writer/poets - many far, far better than me, who you can learn a lot more from. Having said that, it means a lot that you are interested in my work.
I value your opinion highly.

Before I get onto 'the question' you've asked, can I just say something about the Arundhati Roy quote?

lostnsearching wrote:
"to respect strength, never power" i don't really agree....although it depends on the situation but none seems worth the respect(mostly)


I think what you've pointed out here is very important.
It's got me thinking.
What is the difference between strength and power?
I presume that when Roy writes 'strength' she doesn't refer to physical strength, but strength of character - or the strength of nature, and by 'power' she means 'control'.
Gandhi had great inner strength - but he also had power (that's what made him a danger to the British - because to some extent, he had control over the masses). But Gandhi chose not to use his power to gain 'control' - instead, he led by strength of example.

It took a lot of strength for Gandhi to burn his ID card, knowing he would be beaten there on the street for doing so. Why did this non-violent act provoke such a violent reaction?
Because Gandhi's strength of character was so much more appealing to the people - more compelling than all the power the British possessed at the time (or thought we did).

George Bush is all-powerful. He's like a lunatic thief directing some protection racket from the safety of his guarded mansion.
But he isn't funny. He's killing people - soon a million people - if he hits Iran - god knows how many will die.
But he lacks strength of character. He's never walked ahead of his own people into danger, in order to free a country - like Gandhi actually did.
Instead, George sent his people to die without him and for his (and his cronies) personal gain.

The thing is - it doesn't matter how much power George processes - he will be beaten eventually by those who stand forward now and project their strength of character. People like Kucinich.
There is strength in truth and in wisdom. There is also strength in the masses.
It takes strength for people to pull themselves out of bed every morning and go to work or study. To raise a family, build a home.
Sometimes it takes strength just to go on living.

But George has always had it easy. He doesn't know the strength of the people/masses/proletariat - because he doesn't possess the imagination to consider it. He thinks power is everything.

Take my word for it, Naima - someone is going to step forward and challenge George's power… someone with strong conviction.
And whoever it is, they are thinking about it right now. Trying to find the strength inside themselves.
It's coming - I know it is.

Thanks for getting me to think about these things Naima - somehow it seems important to think about the difference between strength and power -

lostnsearching wrote:
i love the part "never forget" the problem is....they do Forget!


Yes - but as long as YOU don't forget - then nothing is forgotten.
Maybe this time we won't let them forget.

*********

Okay, I've put it off long enough. The question you asked in the poem…

Is revolt the only answer for revolution?

It's a big f*cking question.

For a start - what is Revolution? (Try to remember that I'm new to this game myself). If you really want to know how I see it (and when you see the size of this post I'm sure you'll be sorry you asked) I'll have to figure it as I go - so go get a warm drink and put your feet up - we could be here a while…

What is Revolution? Here's what I think… (excuse me if I tell you something you already know - but I've got to lay it down to try and figure it.)

The word revolution comes from 'revolve' - to turn around. It brings a sudden change in direction. The word might conjure in the mind visions of poor folk with pitchforks dragging rich folk off to the guillotine - or students lobbing bricks at the police - but in fact, there are revolutions going on all the time, every day, in the lives of ordinary people. There are revolutions in music, art, youth culture, politics - everything that's out there has the potential for change.

I would like to see a Revolution of the mind. Of the way of thinking. A revolution in education and in commitment.

Instead of renewing our weapons of mass destruction, I would like to see Britain disarm nuclear weapons completely.
That would be a revolution.

In British schools, instead of being taught that Churchill was a hero, I think we should be given the facts and be allowed to make up our own minds whether we agree that a man who said it would be a good idea to test chemical and biological weapons on peoples of the Middle-East, because they were 'just a bunch of savages' is really a 'hero.'

Teach us the facts - both sides of those facts and let us decide.

Education with more emphasise on psychology, philosophy and sociology. Let history books be based on people's personal experiences and not just on dates of battles.

That would be a revolution.

I think people should be encouraged to take a much more active role in the running of their country - instead of being anaesthetised and hypnotised by media and advertising.

That would be a revolution

Instead of 20% of the world's population using up 80% of the worlds resources, while 80% of the human population lives in poverty - I'd like to see a greater commitment to equality - a balancing of the scales of justice. Acknowledgment that every life is as valuable as the next.

That would be a revolution.

(We could go on night and day, there's so much that's desperate for change - but you get the idea - a different way of thinking - of education aimed at enlightening and strengthening the minds of the masses.)

Of course, mostly and firstly, I want to see George Bush and Tony Blair impeached and tried for crimes against citizens of their own countries and of other countries - most importantly, Iraq. I think we need to show the world that the US and Britain have more to offer the world than war.

On a personal note, I also believe that the things (and people) we are drawn to, are those in which we see something of ourselves reflected - something we wish to understand and explore within ourselves.
I feel that I'm drawn to the idea of revolution, partly because I'm going through an internal revolution myself - something is changing. Maybe it's the same for you.

So finally - onto your question about revolt.
Are you asking me whether we should 'rise up' and 'take back the power'?
Personally, I think yes, we should rise up - but not to take back the power - to dismantle it. I'm talking about shutting down a failed management. Have you ever seen the film Jaws? (One of my favourite 'politically suggestive' films). If so, do you remember towards the end, when the fishing guy who's gone off his head is pushing the engine of his boat too hard and when the scientist guy asks him to ease off, he responds by cranking up a gear - resulting in the sinking of the vessel and his own death in the jaws of the shark.
That's how I see George Bush - ignoring all the warnings around him as he whistles his way into the great void.
He has become a dangerous liability.

Here in Britain, Tony Blair has also been lying and taking away our rights - he's got to go. But getting rid of leaders won't be enough - it's up to the masses to take more responsibility.
It's hard to believe, but more people in America voted for a talent show contestant on the box - than voted for a new president in the last election.
Hello???
Like I say - education needs re-addressing

As for 'revolt' - well, I think it depends what you are looking to change and what country you are in (I'm not sure where in the 'universe' you are Naima). -
One thing I do feel strongly about is that it takes time.
Going into Iraq and using brute force to destroy an army and hang a leader was never going to be a good way to begin a Revolution. Violence begets violence.

Where as, investigative journalism, photography, art, etc played a huge part in ending the Vietnam war.
Many historians say that it was public opinion that put the screws on America regards Vietnam and that the major turning point came after this picture hit the US streets.

http://www.p10k.net/Images/Vietnam_girl_napalm.jpg


Here's a true story:

Last Christmas, up in Scotland - in a city considered to be one of the roughest in Britain - Glasgow - there is an estate where in amongst the local Glaswegians, many immigrant families live. Most are from Asia, Africa or the Middle East.
Because of a crack down on illegal immigration, which for many years has been ignored - the police and immigration officers have been rounding up whole families, men, women and children - some who've been established in this country for many years and make a true contribution in their local areas.

Over the Christmas period, local Glaswegians - gangs of men organised by a couple of Grandmothers - patrolled the estate every dawn and through the day - on the look out for immigration vans and police - so that they could warn immigrant families and in some cases, smuggle them out of their homes before the vans arrived outside their front doors to cart them off to a detention centre - before the authorities flew them out of the country.
Many of these families face poverty and suppression on their return to their birth place and many of their children hardly remember the 'old country'.
In some cases, the Scots have put themselves 'between' the police and the immigrant's homes.
No doubt that their action is one of civil disobedience - but they are doing what they feel is the right and proper thing - to protect those weaker than them in a community where locals say the immigrant population has 'benefited the community.'

Dawn raids. Makes me think of when the Nazis were rounding up the Jews in similar raids - to send to their deaths.

Personally, I applaud these Scots. They are 'resisting' - resisting a Government which has basically 'Lost the Plot.'
But they are not attacking police stations, or Government buildings and what they are doing amounts to little more than protest. So, what if the authorities were rounding up these people and sending them to a gas- chamber? (In some cases, they might as well be).
What would people do then? Would they sit back and think, 'thank god it's not me' - or would they grab a weapon and try to protect these people with their lives?

To be honest I think every man/woman/boy/girl has to figure out for themselves what they are prepared to put up with. But if change is needed - the best way to do it is to use the media against itself - filming those people in Glasgow for example - letting the rest of the country know what's going on there - would be an excellent way of bringing a human angle to the crisis - and like the photograph of the Vietnamese girl - could sway public opinion (which is why they're not covering it in the news).
So - where are the filmmakers?
Where is Britain's version of Mike Moore?
So far, the media is in the Government's pocket and that has to be changed. I'm not sure how we go about changing people's way of looking at things like racism, fascism etc - but talking about politics is a starting point. And changing education is a must.

I feel that what I'm doing here is important - even if it's only taken on board (or even read) by only one person - because people need to know the truth. Making art that expresses your desire for change, or writing about your situation, or taking photographs of war, suppression, poverty - all these things can have an effect.
Peaceful demonstration is also very important. I see the peace movement really as the 'Resistance' - people who want to resist the path of fascism and war.
As I've said before - I think there is great symbolic strength to be found in creativity.

At the moment I do what I can - demonstrations - etc
But I feel that the poetry I write is more important somehow. Sharing my understanding. I know how it feels to fear for your life - to be hospitalised by brutality - to be so convinced that you have no rights that you give up fighting those who abuse power around you. But before you can make changes, you have to address the 'revolution' taking place within YOU. Until then - you cannot look to help others.
Strengthen yourself - your mind and body. Read history - read the truth about Rebel leaders of the world - starting with Jesus. Who I believe, was a man similar to Gandhi - crucified for turning over the tax-collectors tables and encouraging the poor to demand their rights. Martin Luther King is another. Che Guevara is another - vilified by the US - who had him assassinated.

Quick Summery

Of course there might come a time when people need to take up arms and resist. The French, for instance, under German occupation. No one condemns them for blowing up German transports, railway lines etc - which is why I find it hard to condemn the Iraqis for targeting US and British troops. Even though I have personally suffered losses because of it.

If however, you want to 'educate' your own Government (frustration beyond belief) I think you have to look back in history to see the best ways of doing that. Women's Rights for example.
I believe that countries like the US should not encroach on the natural process of internal revolution. Here in Britain, women had to fight for their rights - it might have happened earlier than it has for women in say, Egypt - but they did it themselves in their own good time and although some died, they caused a revolution. They had to face ministers like Churchill in the house of Commons - chain themselves to railings, go on hunger strike etc. In the end they won the admiration of their male counterparts. And won their cause.
What would these women back then have done if the US had invaded Britain (not that they'd want to - we haven't got any oil) in order to 'liberate' them?
I'll tell you want they would have done - they would have rallied behind their men to protect their country.
It's up to liberated women to support suppressed women's movements around the world - to help educate their men - not armed soldiers.

Anyway - I don't know if this answers your question at all - or mine. I suppose I would say peaceful demonstration is the best way - as well as creativity. I don't know really. I'm still dealing with internal revolution and until I'm strong enough to deal with that - I guess I'd make a pretty sorry rebel.
But it is true that if I thought my country was being 'taken over' by lunatics and several years of peaceful demonstration etc didn't sort it out - I would be prepared to go to prison for my beliefs. I would not be prepared to kill - unless we were in some sort of Star Wars scenario (The Empire Strikes Back) - where nazis were taking over the earth.

I guess you could say - I'm playing by ear


Whoa - that's enough of that.
Thanks Naima - your question came at a good time. I have been dreading a personal and painful anniversary. But d'you know what? It has slipped passed almost unnoticed because I've been writing this.

Salute

Peace
Endy
0 Replies
 
lostnsearching
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 09:50 am
God Endy,
that's one hell of a reply...gonna take a while....
though about the Pakistan Cricket Coach...don't know much about that but yeah, i heard the rumour aswell...pple around here are forcing themselves to think it's true,...don't have much info to have a personal opinion yet!
so
back to the big one.............
0 Replies
 
lostnsearching
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:05 am
Quote:
I hope my writing encourages you to look at other writer/poets - many far, far better than me, who you can learn a lot more from. Having said that, it means a lot that you are interested in my work.

interested in your work...beyond just that...other writers...they same hollow, to tell you the truth. THe MAIN reason i like your work is because it's filled with emotions and feelings...not just stupid words sewn together for earning....though, there is certain work i'm attracted to...(to begin with i'm not really a writer...just some one who found an artistic emotional outlet...so i've only just begun this journey...and discovered that i'm passionate about it)

Quote:
- so go get a warm drink and put your feet up - we could be here a while

yep, you got that right.... Laughing

anyways, the other stuff you said about Gandhi...unfortunately, i was taught a different side of Gandhi(by now you must have figured i'm from Pakistan)...don't have a proper opinion on him either... not till i see both sides of this bread.... Confused
Strenght...well strength of Principle is very important....
Power...is quite essential, as i've learned by experience
but i respect the proper use of both. not either over the other...maybe what i'm saying is totally irrelevant, i don't know! but what i respect most is INNITIATIVE...action, dude, action...the taking of the first step...ok now this is VERY irrelevant....
going back to the post....
0 Replies
 
lostnsearching
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:27 am
Quote:
there are revolutions going on all the time, every day, in the lives of ordinary people. There are revolutions in music, art, youth culture, politics - everything that's out there has the potential for change.

Agree....that's what attracted me to the subject in the first place

Quote:
Teach us the facts - both sides of those facts and let us decide.


hey i kinda said the same thing a few lines back :wink:

Quote:
Education with more emphasise on psychology, philosophy and sociology. Let history books be based on people's personal experiences and not just on dates of battles.

and they consider i'm crazy when i say that in class...(no wonder i couldn't pass history with an A)....I WON'T STOP>>>>

Quote:
Maybe it's the same for you.

no, i actually want to bring a social revolution...one that will change the society's ideas, thoughts, narrow-mindedness..............there's so much... and i think i'm saying the same thing you just said last line...

Quote:
Are you asking me whether we should 'rise up' and 'take back the power'?

Honestly, i'm not really sure what i'm asking...again, there's so much!

Quote:
I'm talking about shutting down a failed management

and i'm trying to end a form of modernday slavery

Quote:
Have you ever seen the film Jaws? (One of my favourite 'politically suggestive' films). If so, do you remember towards the end, when the fishing guy who's gone off his head is pushing the engine of his boat too hard and when the scientist guy asks him to ease off, he responds by cranking up a gear - resulting in the sinking of the vessel and his own death in the jaws of the shark.

i think that's the one i started to watch but walked out cuz i found it boring.... Embarrassed

(gone to get another drink and my journal...need to take personal notes...)
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 10:38 am
lostnsearching wrote:
Quote:
by now you must have figured i'm from Pakistan


Actually, I hadn't
Are you in Pakistan right now?
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 11:30 am
Sorry Naima - it doesn't matter where you are. 'The universe' is good enough. But I do know something of how your life must be if you're in Pakistan - and I want you to know you're important here - so take care.

I haven't missed what you said about modernday issues - but how safe is it for you to talk about it?

I asked where you are because I'm also interested in other places - and I've been to a few. My favorite place on earth (so far) is in Spain - maybe I'll write about it some time.

Also I'm interested in cooking - so maybe you can give me some cool recipes - I know lots of Spanish, Italian and Indian ones - but alas, none from Pakistan.

I think your comments on my post so far, have been excellent ones. (And as always, sometimes very funny)
Thank you Naima - for being there

Peace
Endy
0 Replies
 
lostnsearching
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 11:37 am
Quote:
That's how I see George Bush - ignoring all the warnings around him as he whistles his way into the great void.


i think 'neglecting' for a higher purpose...Iraq, Afghanistan, next: Iran... first befriend then behead...i love patterns, but this one i really don't like...
anyways, to me he seems like one of those evil villians who want to rule the world but ... don't really know what to do after they (supposedly) get the power: there's power again!

Quote:
As for 'revolt' - well, I think it depends what you are looking to change and what country you are in (I'm not sure where in the 'universe' you are Naima

where am i...God now how do i answer that...lets see...i'm on a chair located somewhere in south asia a country called "Pakistan"...uh oh.......NO i'm so NOT a terrorrist...
:wink:
what am i looking to change...you might not understand this...too long a story...hmm....might take time: till u get it yourself! though i think you already have!!!

Quote:
Going into Iraq and using brute force to destroy an army and hang a leader was never going to be a good way to begin a Revolution. Violence begets violence.

i'll keep that in mind...

Quote:
investigative

that word...hits home! My purpose is somewhere within that word.

Quote:
Many of these families face poverty and suppression on their return to their birth place and many of their children hardly remember the 'old country'.


and much worst...i've lived amongst such communities for a few years in America

Quote:
But if change is needed - the best way to do it is to use the media against itself

note to self...DONT FORGET THIS!!!!
i'm starting to get your point for all this now, Endy

Quote:
I'm not sure how we go about changing people's way of looking at things like racism, fascism etc -

Discrimination, racism....yes you do...i guess u think u don't know because that's not your purpose...i'm learning a lot out of all this!!!!

Quote:
I feel that what I'm doing here is important - even if it's only taken on board (or even read) by only one person

if that's me as that one person then... it's not only one...if i figure something out i do that Eureka thingy....(no doubt they think i'm crazy :wink: )

Quote:
Making art that expresses your desire for change, or writing about your situation, or taking photographs of war, suppression, poverty - all these things can have an effect.

got it!

Quote:
But I feel that the poetry I write is more important somehow

i think i want to say something like 'i told you so!'

Quote:
But before you can make changes, you have to address the 'revolution' taking place within YOU. Until then - you cannot look to help others.

Level 1: adress...purpose obtained
Level2:....innitiating sequence

Quote:
Strengthen yourself - your mind and body. Read history - read the truth about Rebel leaders of the world - starting with Jesus. Who I believe, was a man similar to Gandhi - crucified for turning over the tax-collectors tables and encouraging the poor to demand their rights. Martin Luther King is another. Che Guevara is another - vilified by the US - who had him assassinated

glad to know i'm already on this process...

Quote:
Quick Summery

YAY!!!

Quote:
I believe that countries like the US should not encroach on the natural process of internal revolution. Here in Britain, women had to fight for their rights - it might have happened earlier than it has for women in say, Egypt - but they did it themselves in their own good time and although some died, they caused a revolution. They had to face ministers like Churchill in the house of Commons - chain themselves to railings, go on hunger strike etc. In the end they won the admiration of their male counterparts. And won their cause.

Watch out world...

Quote:
that they'd want to - we haven't got any oil

Laughing nor do we, i think!.....
though if you look a little differently...the next in this pattern(according to me) is Iran(quite obvious) and then...Pakistan...Ouch...(hey, it's not my fault i have these wierd philosophies but they're normally right! based on logic...)

Quote:
It's up to liberated women to support suppressed women's movements around the world

note to self...figure out where you fit in!

Quote:
I guess you could say - I'm playing by ear


either your right or your good... the first one to have gotten my ear!(hard to believe?...no worries, i was born to rebel(even astrology says that :wink: ))

Quote:
Whoa - that's enough of that.


oh my! my tea is cold....almost forgot about that...

Quote:
Thanks Naima - your question came at a good time. I have been dreading a personal and painful anniversary. But d'you know what? It has slipped passed almost unnoticed because I've been writing this.


don't understand what your saying there...i think i did something good...about time someone acknowledged, though i don't get why? Embarrassed

okay, now another post coming your way soon about if i got the answer or not...time for me to go to sleep ....

Salutes back
Love
Naima
ps, hope you don't mind my spamming your thread.....
Love
Naima
0 Replies
 
lostnsearching
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 11:44 am
hey Endy
missed those two...
yes i am in Pakistan right now...tough conditions if you're wondering....
is it safe for me...my existence isn't safe, i'm not supposed to have views, i'm not supposed to have dreams...etc the usual ****
but since life doesn't accept me i accept myself in it...
you were saying if i'm safe to talk about this....who cares? i for one don't!

Quote:
Also I'm interested in cooking - so maybe you can give me some cool recipes - I know lots of Spanish, Italian and Indian ones - but alas, none from Pakistan


Recipes...let's see: NO!!!
i'm probably do like the worst cooking in the world...you're better off hungry then eating something i've cooked.

Quote:
Thank you Naima - for being there

THankyou for realizing i was there...
Love
Naima
0 Replies
 
lostnsearching
 
  0  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 11:56 am
Quote:
I haven't missed what you said about modernday issues - but how safe is it for you to talk about it?


dude, the police destroyed this MAJOR tv station's main office the other day...political revenge
the cricket...you don't even wanna know
politics....dirtiest as it can get...though i support the president...the guy's supressed and trying to save our ass since he got there....
society...that i won't even reply about
but the problem with politics is... it's getting into my life...something that just keeps butting in...an interesting story for another time, write now i'm very sleepy
but yeah i'm safe....i'm one of those who tell the gangster, holding the gun at your face, to simply get a life!
but i don't want you to get the wrong idea about the country... what idea should you have (yawn)
tomorrow dude
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 12:44 pm
Blimey - such a lot to take in, in one day.

See ya, Naima
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:05 pm
March 21st, 2007 4:51 pm
Panel OKs subpoenas for Rove, others

By Laurie Kellman / Associated Press

WASHINGTON - A House panel on Wednesday approved subpoenas for President Bush's political adviser, Karl Rove and other top White House aides, setting up a constitutional showdown over the firings of eight federal prosecutors.

http://staging.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/armedanddangerousc.jpg

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=9456
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:09 pm
Bush advisers ordered to testify

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42707000/jpg/_42707909_bush-afp203.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6475985.stm
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:24 pm
Steve Bell on the cash-for-honours investigation


http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2007/03/07/bell512.jpg

Steve Bell 2007

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,2028272,00.html
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:28 pm
Steve Bell on the cash-for-honours affair

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/steve_bell/2007/02/02/blair512ready.jpg

Steve Bell 2007

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,,2004462,00.html
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:31 pm
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/american_originals/capone.gif

Al Capone, 1930
(National Archives, Still Picture Branch,
306-NT-163.820C )

For years Capone remained immune to prosecution for his criminal activities. In June 1930, after an exhaustive investigation by the federal government, Capone was indicted for income tax evasion. One of the most notorious criminals of the 20th century--the man held most responsible for the bloody lawlessness of Prohibition-era Chicago--was imprisoned for tax evasion.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 06:35 am
American Kangaroo Court Claims Its First Victim
By Amy Goodman

It is appropriate that a person from Australia, home of the kangaroo, should be the first one dragged before the kangaroo court at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay. David Hicks, imprisoned there for more than five years, pleaded guilty Monday to providing material support for terrorism.

Continue http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17433.htm


Guantanamo father earns praise

The father of an Australian man being held in the Guantanamo Bay detention camp in Cuba has been nominated for a Father of the Year award.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4797585.stm

Hicks' plea 'a way to get home'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6501701.stm

0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 06:59 am
US troops 'would have fought Iranian captors'

By Terri Judd in Bahrain
Published: 26 March 2007

A senior American commander in the Gulf has said his men would have fired on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard rather than let themselves be taken hostage.

In a dramatic illustration of the different postures adopted by British and US forces working together in Iraq, Lt-Cdr Erik Horner - who has been working alongside the task force to which the 15 captured Britons belonged - said he was "surprised" the British marines and sailors had not been more aggressive.

Asked by The Independent whether the men under his command would have fired on the Iranians, he said: "Agreed. Yes. I don't want to second-guess the British after the fact but our rules of engagement allow a little more latitude. Our boarding team's training is a little bit more towards self-preservation."

The executive officer - second-in-command on USS Underwood, the frigate working in the British-controlled task force with HMS Cornwall - said: " The unique US Navy rules of engagement say we not only have a right to self-defence but also an obligation to self-defence. They [the British] had every right in my mind and every justification to defend themselves rather than allow themselves to be taken. Our reaction was, 'Why didn't your guys defend themselves?'"

His comments came as it was reported British intelligence had been warned by the CIA that Iran would seek revenge for the detention of five suspected Iranian intelligence officers in Iraq two months ago but refused to raise threat levels in line with their US counterparts. The capture of the eight sailors and seven marines - including one young mother - will undoubtedly renew accusations that Britain's determination to maintain a friendly face in the region has left its troops frequently under protected.

Vastly outnumbered and out-gunned, the Royal Navy team from HMS Cornwall were seized on Friday after completing a UN-authorised inspection of a merchant dhow in what they insist were clearly Iraqi waters. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy appeared in half a dozen attack speedboats mounted with machine guns..

Yesterday, the former First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Alan West, said British rules of engagement were "very much de-escalatory, because we don't want wars starting ... Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away.

Continue http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2393337.ece
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 07:35 am
A Monstrous War Crime


With more than 650,000 civilians dead in Iraq, our government must take responsibility for its lies

By Richard Horton

03/28/07 "The Guardian" -- - -Our collective failure has been to take our political leaders at their word. This week the BBC reported that the government's own scientists advised ministers that the Johns Hopkins study on Iraq civilian mortality was accurate and reliable, following a freedom of information request by the reporter Owen Bennett-Jones. This paper was published in the Lancet last October. It estimated that 650,000 Iraqi civilians had died since the American and British led invasion in March 2003.

Immediately after publication, the prime minister's official spokesman said that the Lancet's study "was not one we believe to be anywhere near accurate". The foreign secretary, Margaret Beckett, said that the Lancet figures were "extrapolated" and a "leap". President Bush said: "I don't consider it a credible report".
Scientists at the UK's Department for International Development thought differently. They concluded that the study's methods were "tried and tested". Indeed, the Johns Hopkins approach would likely lead to an "underestimation of mortality".

The Ministry of Defence's chief scientific adviser said the research was "robust", close to "best practice", and "balanced". He recommended "caution in publicly criticising the study".

When these recommendations went to the prime minister's advisers, they were horrified. One person briefing Tony Blair wrote: "Are we really sure that the report is likely to be right? That is certainly what the brief implies?" A Foreign and Commonwealth Office official was forced to conclude that the government "should not be rubbishing the Lancet".

The prime minister's adviser finally gave in. He wrote: "The survey methodology used here cannot be rubbished, it is a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones".

How would the government respond? Would it welcome the Johns Hopkins study as an important contribution to understanding the military threat to Iraqi civilians? Would it ask for urgent independent verification? Would it invite the Iraqi government to upgrade civilian security?

Of course, our government did none of these things. Tony Blair was advised to say: "The overriding message is that there are no accurate or reliable figures of deaths in Iraq".

His official spokesman went further and rejected the Johns Hopkins report entirely. It was a shameful and cowardly dissembling by a Labour - yes, by a Labour - prime minister.

Indeed, it was even contrary to the US's own Iraq Study Group report, which concluded last year that "there is significant underreporting of the violence in Iraq".

This Labour government, which includes Gordon Brown as much as it does Tony Blair, is party to a war crime of monstrous proportions. Yet our political consensus prevents any judicial or civil society response. Britain is paralysed by its own indifference.

At a time when we are celebrating our enlightened abolition of slavery 200 years ago, we are continuing to commit one of the worst international abuses of human rights of the past half-century. It is inexplicable how we allowed this to happen. It is inexplicable why we are not demanding this government's mass resignation.

Two hundred years from now, the Iraq war will be mourned as the moment when Britain violated its delicate democratic constitution and joined the ranks of nations that use extreme pre-emptive killing as a tactic of foreign policy. Some anniversary that will be.

· Richard Horton is a doctor and the editor of the Lancet - [email protected]

© Guardian News and Media Limited 2007
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Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 06:03 pm
Bush serves up the jokes at meal

US President George W Bush joked about sliding ratings and his post-White House plans as he lampooned himself at an annual press dinner on Wednesday.[/b]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42741000/jpg/_42741521_afp203bodynancy.jpg

"A year ago my approval rating was in the 30s, my nominee for the Supreme Court had just withdrawn, and my vice-president had shot someone.

"Ah, those were the good ol' days," he said, to applause from the audience.

Journalists were also treated to a Karl Rove rap at the meal where presidential self-deprecation is the tradition.

'Hurt' Cheney

Mr Bush began his speech at the Radio and Television Correspondents' Association dinner in Washington by thanking the association for providing the food and "Senator Webb for providing security".

A senior aide working for Jim Webb - a Democratic senator from Virginia - was arrested this week as he was caught carrying a loaded handgun into the Capitol building.

Mr Bush noted that his vice-president, Dick Cheney, was not present at the gala event.

"He's had a rough few weeks. To be honest, his feelings were kind of hurt. He said he was going on vacation to Afghanistan, where people like him," he said, alluding to a recent visit to Afghanistan by Mr Cheney in which he was targeted by a suicide bomber.

Using a deadpan delivery style to good effect, Mr Bush spoke of the controversy surrounding the firing of eight federal prosecutors working at the Department of Justice.

"I have to admit we really blew the way we let those attorneys go," he said. "You know you've botched it when people sympathise with lawyers."

Pop-up book plan

One of the biggest laughs came when the president spoke of plans for his post-White House memoir - he said that former President Bill Clinton had written a 10,000 page-long tome.

"I'm thinking of something really fun and creative for mine," he said. "You know, maybe a pop-up book."

He asked the audience which title they liked best - "How Dubbya Got His Groove Back", "Who Moved My Presidency?" or "Tuesday with Cheney".

Needless to say high profile members of rival political party the Democrats came in for some mockery.

Nodding to Nancy Pelosi, sitting at the head of the top table, Mr Bush said he had wondered how he would get along with the Democratic House Speaker when she took over as the first woman to run the House of Representatives:

"Some say she's bossy, she's opinionated, she's not to be crossed," the president said. "But hey, I get along with my mother."

Looking out across the room packed with journalists and their guests, Mr Bush pointed out that presidential hopeful Barack Obama had chosen not to attend. "Not enough press," the president joked.

Mr Bush's appearance at the black-tie dinner, which is attended by media personalities, celebrities and politicians, continues a tradition begun by President Calvin Coolidge in 1924.

As part of the evening's entertainment, comedians Colin Mochrie and Brad Sherwood from the US TV show Whose Line is it Anyway got White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove to join in a rap song poking fun at Mr Rove's hobbies: stamp collecting and quail hunting.

Shouting out "I'm MC Rove", Mr Rove danced about the stage and postured like a rap star, much to the delight of the watching press.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42741000/jpg/_42741523_ap203bodykarl.jpg


*****************************************

My God, who are these people?
Either they're not human or I'm not
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 10:02 pm
A peculiar outrage


The treatment of Faye Turney is wrong - but not in the same league as British and US abuses

Ronan Bennett
Friday March 30, 2007
The Guardian

It's right that the government and media should be concerned about the treatment the 15 captured marines and sailors are receiving in Iran. Faye Turney's letters bear the marks of coercion, while parading the prisoners in front of TV cameras was demeaning. But the outrage expressed by ministers and leader writers is curious given the recent record of the "coalition of the willing" on the way it deals with prisoners.

Turney may have been "forced to wear the hijab", as the Daily Mail noted with fury, but so far as we know she has not been forced into an orange jumpsuit. Her comrades have not been shackled, blindfolded, forced into excruciating physical contortions for long periods, or denied liquids and food. As far as we know they have not had the Bible spat on, torn up or urinated on in front of their faces. They have not had electrodes attached to their genitals or been set on by attack dogs.

They have not been hung from a forklift truck and photographed for the amusement of their captors. They have not been pictured naked and smeared in their own excrement. They have not been bundled into a CIA-chartered plane and secretly "rendered" to a basement prison in a country where torturers are experienced and free to do their worst.

As far as we know, Turney and her comrades are not being "worked hard", the euphemism coined by one senior British army officer for the abuse of prisoners at Camp Bread Basket. And as far as we know all 15 are alive and well, which is more than can be said for Baha Mousa, the hotel receptionist who, in 2003, was unfortunate enough to have been taken into custody by British troops in Basra. There has of course been a court martial and it exonerated the soldiers of Mousa's murder. So we can only assume that his death - by beating - was self-inflicted; yet another instance of "asymmetrical warfare", the description given by US authorities to the deaths of the Guantánamo detainees who hanged themselves last year.

And while the families of the captured marines and sailors must be in agonies of uncertainty, they have the comfort of knowing that the very highest in the land are doing everything they can to end their "unjustified detention". They can count themselves especially lucky, for the very same highest of the land have rather different views on what justifies detention where foreign-born Muslims in Britain are concerned. In the case, for example, of the Belmarsh detainees, suspicion justified arrest; statements extracted under torture from third parties justified accusation; and secret hearings justified imprisonment.

With disregard for the rights of prisoners now entrenched at the very top of government, it comes as no surprise that abuses committed by rank and file soldiers go virtually unremarked. No one in politics or the media dares censure the military, surely today the only institution still immune from any sort of criticism, even when soldiers are brutal and murderous towards captives. Instead of frankly facing up to the wrongs soldiers have perpetrated, officers and ministers speak of difficult work done in testing conditions, deliberate provocations, and propaganda by the enemy.

We all know in our bones that soldiers and civilians in revolt don't mix. Ask any historian. Ask them about what British soldiers did in Kenya, French soldiers did in Algeria, and Americans in Vietnam. While you're at it, ask them what the RAF did in Iraq under British rule in the 1920s (gassed Kurds, in case you've forgotten).

We must all hope that Faye Turney and her comrades are returned to their families safely and soon. Then perhaps we can compare their accounts of their treatment with what Moazzam Begg and the Tipton Three have to say about Guantánamo, what Prisoner B has to say about Belmarsh, and what the men arrested with Baha Mousa can tell us of his screams on the night he died.

· Ronan Bennett's latest novel, Zugzwang, is published by Bloomsbury in July

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2046334,00.html
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