Churchgoers

Churches get a very bad reputation when they let imperfect people join.

Perhaps some think the membership should be strictly limited to those with no faults and who will never offend anyone in any way.

If you ever found the 'perfect church', you would spoil it by joining. Laughing

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real life wrote:

Churches get a very bad reputation when they let imperfect people join.

Perhaps some think the membership should be strictly limited to those with no faults and who will never offend anyone in any way.

If you ever found the 'perfect church', you would spoil it by joining.

If you are replying to me... My Church does not refuse anybody from joining. We do not judge - God looks after that. Sure, some of the membership can offend others. What is not offensive is the manner in which service is held, the doctrine, abstainance from politics, fellowship, the promise of Christ for the future.

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real life wrote:

Churches get a very bad reputation when they let imperfect people join.

Perhaps some think the membership should be strictly limited to those with no faults and who will never offend anyone in any way.

If you ever found the 'perfect church', you would spoil it by joining.

Naive response.

Every organization, business , group of people has a working administration or political structure. Some workplaces are cutthroat, cliquish, unfair, racist, sexist, unnecessarily cruel, etx. Some are egalitarian, open, seeking to serve the organization in the best way possible. The personality of the structure depends on the character and motives of most of the people in--or seeking--positions of influence.

I have moved around to several areas, due to my husband's jobs, and immediately sought out church homes in each place.

Because of the nature of Baptist churches and the mean-spirited, self-righteous, fundamentalist, power hungry personalities of the people attracted to positions of power in that particular strain of religion, I collected enough information to form an opinion. Last week, the sermon at a local church (which I quit) was a victorious rant about how they'd saved themselves from ruin by ostracizing a part of their membership, who didn't believe the Virgin Birth, the Jonah story and other "miracles". It was a dirty process that smacked of the Inquisition and ripped the church in two--and cruelly mistreated the pastor. The sermon was like some sick crowing over a murdered carcass.

The more compassionate you are toward other people, the more you are suspect. Conforming is demanded, and you are conforming to something that bears no resemblance at all to anything Jesus said or did.

They have thrown out what he was about and written their own hateful, isolationist dogma.

Perfect, my ass. People who don't recognize it as an abomination are busy perpetuating it.

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Church is a great place to kill an hour. --- Frank Burns MASH

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Technically, I've never been to Church. Most of the time, there was no need. I remember my primary school had morning worship every morning, except Wednesdays and Saturdays. Every morning we'd file into what was known as the Oak Room (the school used to be a Manor) and sit at the pews, clutch at our hymn books and sing. Then we'd bow our heads down and pray.

During my days in primary school I did more worship than I would have done if I went to church every Sunday.

I never saw a need to go to Church. What was the point of going to Church on a Sunday, if I technically go through similar motions during the week?

This attitude continued, even when I went to my Secondary School, which kinda had fewer of these morning worship sessions (partially because they found it so difficult to accomodate everyone in one place).

I still don't see the point of going to church, but then again I have been agnostic for a very long time now.

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real life wrote:

Churches get a very bad reputation when they let imperfect people join.

Perhaps some think the membership should be strictly limited to those with no faults and who will never offend anyone in any way.

If you ever found the 'perfect church', you would spoil it by joining.

I don't think they necessarily think they are "perfect", however I have heard it said many times over by many different churches that "we have THE TRUUUUTH." So I guess they think no one else does. The pressure to conform is almost unbelievable in some places. The looks and stares you will get if you are even slightly out of the ordinary. The smug attitudes. Fake smiles. Enthusiastic AMENS! through-out the sermon, followed by those very same people standing in the hallway after church saying, "OMG can you believe he said that in the sermon today? Who does he think he is? What a hypocrite! Jane told me yesterday that she saw him at the mall holding hands with Judy, Johns wife."

Lash really hit the nail right on the head with her response. However any of this would be hard to recognize when you are on the inside looking out. My challenge to anyone who doubts what lash or I have said is to step outside of their church for a few Sundays. Go somewhere you've never been. Don't do it just one Sunday, do it for two or three weeks in a row, going to a different church each Sunday. Then step back into your own and see how completely different all of it looks, yours included. It could be life changing.

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Hi Intrepid,

Good to hear from you, my friend.

No I wasnt necessarily responding to you. It's just my general train of thought whenever anyone starts the conversation in this direction.

My church is full of sinners and hypocrites. (so is the world outside the church doors, no difference there. Folks who avoid church may think they are 'at least not a hypocrite', but the truth is otherwise.)

We don't condone sin. We struggle against it and fail often.

I include myself in that description. I am a sinner.

Anyone who doesn't understand that foundational Christian belief includes the basic starting point that 'all have sinned' , is really missing the point.

If you (or I, or anyone) ever found a 'perfect church' (an impossible task), we'd immediately spoil it by joining.

-----------------------------------------

Lash,

You're in such a hurry to find fault with my post that you may not realize that you and I are part of the problem.

We're sinners. We ALL perpetuate it.

Look in the mirror.

Doubtless there are those you attend church with who are just as offended by something you do or believe as you are by somebody else's belief or behavior.

If you say, 'who would be offended by anything I do?' or 'if they are offended by me, then that's THEIR problem' or 'I haven't done anything that anyone should be offended by' etc , then you just don't get it.

---------------------------------

The problem is human nature. People don't see themselves the way others see them.

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hephzibah wrote:

real life wrote:
Churches get a very bad reputation when they let imperfect people join.

Perhaps some think the membership should be strictly limited to those with no faults and who will never offend anyone in any way.

If you ever found the 'perfect church', you would spoil it by joining.

I don't think they necessarily think they are "perfect", however I have heard it said many times over by many different churches that "we have THE TRUUUUTH." So I guess they think no one else does. The pressure to conform is almost unbelievable in some places. The looks and stares you will get if you are even slightly out of the ordinary. The smug attitudes. Fake smiles. Enthusiastic AMENS! through-out the sermon, followed by those very same people standing in the hallway after church saying, "OMG can you believe he said that in the sermon today? Who does he think he is? What a hypocrite! Jane told me yesterday that she saw him at the mall holding hands with Judy, Johns wife."

Lash really hit the nail right on the head with her response. However any of this would be hard to recognize when you are on the inside looking out. My challenge to anyone who doubts what lash or I have said is to step outside of their church for a few Sundays. Go somewhere you've never been. Don't do it just one Sunday, do it for two or three weeks in a row, going to a different church each Sunday. Then step back into your own and see how completely different all of it looks, yours included. It could be life changing.

Sadly, what you say is true in many instances. I have intentionally attended other churches to see what they are all about. Many times I have been very disappointed and disheartened at what I saw and heard.

What this did was reinforce my thoughts on my own church since I was objectively looking at the whole picture. I have also spoken to people who have come into our church to see what their perception is. Perception, whether real or imagined, is a very powerful thing.

We are trying to come inito the 21st century as far as attitudes are concerned. For example, we do not care what someone wears when they come to church. Sure, it would be nice if they were in a suit or dress but it is the soul that counts...not the exterior package. At one time, this would not be tolerated. We also do not judge someone by their sexual orientation. This is hard for some people, but who are we to judge. We are changing many things, but the doctrine will not change. We do not control that...we can only try to changel the natural things of today.

I say this in all humility and with no ill intent against any other religion.

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I posted a rather explanatory response, but it disappeared.

Needless to say, RL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being offended by someone's dress, hair, or some other benign attribute--and being offended by attacks on people, ostracism, self-righteous condemnation of people who are different--and doing it while wrapping yourself in Jesus' mangled corpse are two completely different things.

You don't know anything about my experiences during my life.

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Lash wrote:

I posted a rather explanatory response, but it disappeared.

Needless to say, RL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being offended by someone's dress, hair, or some other benign attribute--and being offended by attacks on people, ostracism, self-righteous condemnation of people who are different--and doing it while wrapping yourself in Jesus' mangled corpse are two completely different things.

You don't know anything about my experiences during my life.

I made no reference, nor allusion, to hair, dress, etc.

But I'm pretty sure that you have a human nature.

Therefore you are fallible and subject to misunderstand the motives and actions of others. And everyone you meet and interact with, including at church, is the same.

Also your human nature is prone to self centered behavior and attitudes, which will in turn offend others. And everyone you meet and interact with, including at church, is the same.

Your actual experiences are details that aren't necessary to know. Unless you can escape your human nature, everything I said applies.

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Everyone is not the same, and everyone doesn't do the same things.

Your syrupy apologist platitudes ain't making it.

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Lash wrote:

I posted a rather explanatory response, but it disappeared.

Needless to say, RL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being offended by someone's dress, hair, or some other benign attribute--and being offended by attacks on people, ostracism, self-righteous condemnation of people who are different--and doing it while wrapping yourself in Jesus' mangled corpse are two completely different things.

You don't know anything about my experiences during my life.

He does'nt have a mangled corpse nor has his body been turned to ashes.

He is risen!

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Lash wrote:

Everyone is not the same, and everyone doesn't do the same things.

Your syrupy apologist platitudes ain't making it.

Anyone reading your posts knows that your ability to be offended over someone else's opinion is certainly in evidence on more than one occasion; as is also your ability to be offensive when someone doesn't see it your way.

It's human nature all over you like slick on soap. Go ahead, get offended that I called you human.

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Communicating with you is a waste.

I wasn't offended by opinions or beliefs. I was offended by overt cruelty toward innocent people on a routine basis that was cloaked by the majority. Expressed distaste and blame for people in poverty, who sought help. It was a widespread culture of cruelty and exclusion--the richer the church, the meaner the people.

Why do you insist on insinuating yourself in something you know nothing about? In order to have this particular conversation with me, you have to have a clue as to what you are speaking about. It is about experiences you did not have.

You are not qualified to argue with me about my experiences. Talk about your own. I'm sure they're just peachy.

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Bartikus wrote:

Lash wrote:
I posted a rather explanatory response, but it disappeared.

Needless to say, RL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being offended by someone's dress, hair, or some other benign attribute--and being offended by attacks on people, ostracism, self-righteous condemnation of people who are different--and doing it while wrapping yourself in Jesus' mangled corpse are two completely different things.

You don't know anything about my experiences during my life.

He does'nt have a mangled corpse nor has his body been turned to ashes.

He is risen!

Metaphor, dingaling.

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Lash wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Lash wrote:
I posted a rather explanatory response, but it disappeared.

Needless to say, RL, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being offended by someone's dress, hair, or some other benign attribute--and being offended by attacks on people, ostracism, self-righteous condemnation of people who are different--and doing it while wrapping yourself in Jesus' mangled corpse are two completely different things.

You don't know anything about my experiences during my life.

He does'nt have a mangled corpse nor has his body been turned to ashes.

He is risen!

Metaphor, dingaling.

I'm sorry Lash.

really.

Take care and I hope great things for you and yours. You deserve better.

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Lash wrote:

Communicating with you is a waste.

I wasn't offended by opinions or beliefs. I was offended by overt cruelty toward innocent people on a routine basis that was cloaked by the majority. Expressed distaste and blame for people in poverty, who sought help. It was a widespread culture of cruelty and exclusion--the richer the church, the meaner the people.

Why do you insist on insinuating yourself in something you know nothing about? In order to have this particular conversation with me, you have to have a clue as to what you are speaking about. It is about experiences you did not have.

You are not qualified to argue with me about my experiences. Talk about your own. I'm sure they're just peachy.

Meanness of spirit and/or overt cruelty is not limited to the rich, Lash.

If you think it is, you and I should walk a few neighborhoods, I'll introduce you to some folks and you'll come away with a different opinion.

Human nature expresses itself in sinful actions among the rich and the poor and everyone inbetween.

Churchgoers and non-churchgoers can and do sin.

Your holier than thou attitude toward the folks in churches you've attended simply means that you need a mirror.

I am sure you offended them as much as they offended you. You think you're right and they think they are right. So how are you different than they?

OH yeah because YOU'RE right.........yeah

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real life wrote:

Lash wrote:
Communicating with you is a waste.

I wasn't offended by opinions or beliefs. I was offended by overt cruelty toward innocent people on a routine basis that was cloaked by the majority. Expressed distaste and blame for people in poverty, who sought help. It was a widespread culture of cruelty and exclusion--the richer the church, the meaner the people.

Why do you insist on insinuating yourself in something you know nothing about? In order to have this particular conversation with me, you have to have a clue as to what you are speaking about. It is about experiences you did not have.

You are not qualified to argue with me about my experiences. Talk about your own. I'm sure they're just peachy.

Meanness of spirit and/or overt cruelty is not limited to the rich, Lash.

If you think it is, you and I should walk a few neighborhoods, I'll introduce you to some folks and you'll come away with a different opinion.

Human nature expresses itself in sinful actions among the rich and the poor and everyone inbetween.

Churchgoers and non-churchgoers can and do sin.

Your holier than thou attitude toward the folks in churches you've attended simply means that you need a mirror.

I am sure you offended them as much as they offended you. You think you're right and they think they are right. So how are you different than they?

OH yeah because YOU'RE right.........yeah

What does it matter if you have all the questions in the cosmos answered and are right all the time?.....................................and have not love?

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Preaching about other's lives, with no clue of what you're talking about.

You make my point.

Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude,...

A complete waste

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Lash wrote:

Preaching about other's lives, with no clue of what you're talking about.

You make my point.

Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude, Empty platitude,Empty platitude, Empty platitude,...

A complete waste

It's about being real....right?

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