Anyone for a scooter?

I guess it would have it's uses, but for me it would be totally impractically.

90% of my driving involves going on highways where 40mph is below the minium speed limit.

Plus, it is about 95 to 100 degrees here every day during the summer. I have to go to work, and quite frankly would be a stinking dirty mess by the time I got there.

The rest of my travel is usually for grocery shopping or getting other living necessities. I could never load a weeks worth of food on that, and the alternative of shopping every day would not be practical...in this head cold products would melt or spoil on the way home.

Not to sound superficial, but I really don't want to arrive somewhere a windblown smelly mess.

Finally, and most importantly, I see how some drivers treat people on bicycles and scooters, and I would fear for my safety.

I understand your point. But for urban use, and put-putting around a small community, it would be fine.

Not being argumentative sumac...really asking seriously.....


Where would people be "putt putting" to that would be worth having other cars try to clip you, that doesn't give you enough room to even carry more than a small bag of groceries.

Personally, my amount of "putt putting" takes up a miniscule part of my time. When I need to drive, I need a car.

In an urban environment, what would people be using them for? In a city like, let's say NY or Chicago, the public transportation is readily available.

Also, honestly, there's the danger of getting in an accident, falling off, etc.

Most people over a certain age might be fearful of dealing with possibility of trying to get around without going ass over tea kettle. About 5 years ago, when I was in my early forties, I had the stupidest thing happen to me, I was walking down my driveway, and all of a sudden, I just fell...have no idea why, but that's beside the point. This innocent little fall, didn't even get a scrap, somehow sprained a muscle in my upper thigh (I landed flat on it) so badly it took about 3 months to completely heal.

I'm really trying to picture people getting up in the morning, putting on business attire, looking presentable, then be on a bike with a motor going 25-30 miles per hour wearing stockings heels, suit.

I'm just trying to be realistic.... To be honest I hadn't read your article (I will after submiting)...but at first thought, it seems like a device that would be purchased by those who will look at this as the latest "hip" thing.

I really can picture this being appealing to childless 20 somethings in an urban environment.... jumping on their scooter to buzz down to the starbucks or some other coffee cafe to drink some over priced java and to "see and be seen" Maybe then they'll get toether with another scooter friend and they can scoot down to the art gallery or political rally.

What do you do when it's pouring rain? Snowing and icy? Hotter than Hades? When I think of Italy and its vespas, it always seems to be young fit people more or less taking them around to get from social event to event....I don't picture mothers doing the shopping, business men and business woman going to a meeting. Repairmen going to a job.

I just don't see this as very practical.

I'm all for protecting the environment, if everyone would slow down, stop tailgating and making rabbit starts. kept their tires inflated and stopped driving tanks, millions of gallons would be saved.

But then again, that wouldn't be something else for everyone to rush out and buy.

Just one more thing to make people fat. At least college students get some exercise walking to and from class now. Soon it will all be a bunch of whales riding along a cracked sidewalk.

ok, read the article, didn't seem to be that much new info..

Now, what I AM really interested in is hydrogen powered cars.

As far as hybrids....I'm still deciding if the extra cost is worth it right now.

From what I've read, the electric part car is only in effect up to speeds of 40 miles per hour....that's not very fast. Next time you're in your car, note what it feels like when you are going under 40. How much, realistically, do you REALLY drive under 40mph?

On the highway, it gets 45mpg. I get in my toyota corolla 32mpg....it would take at least 45000 miles of driving to make up the cost difference between a prius and a toyota, for me, that 4 years.

Why does a prius get 45 mph highway? Because it's lighter and more aerodynamic.

Auto manufactureres could make standard cars more aerodynamic too.

These claims of 200+ mpg? I'd like to see the driving conditions, and compare them to real drivers...give the same car to 50 people and see what they come up with.

All these ideas will come to fruition, I want a hybrid that will take me up to 60 before it kicks over to gas.

Just a thought on the whales. They say that swimming helps a person to lose weight and/or keep trim. Um, whales swim don't they?

Pesonally, I would rather ride a bicycle than a scooter.

So would I, and at least if I have a flat tire, I can fix it beside the road, if I just can't get out of it.

Hm, good point...

Methinks there may be some investigative research in order here....

Whales are actually quite trim and svelte, for what they are...plus, their penis's are SIX FEET LONG!!!!

I have SEEN one

Just a random fact.

Methinks you are spending too much time in Sue's threads.

Methinks youmights have something there.

sorry sumac...there's just some nuttiness going on somewhere else here right now.

So someone felt the need to improve on gas powered scooters, that get 80+mpg? And probably is going to cost twice as much.

And I'm not sure I understand that a front wheel drive scooter is going to "capture breaking energy" any better than traditional RWD.

Either way, chicks dig scooters. All the cool kids pissing around on purple Vespas here in Boston know what's up.

that's because we like to sit on the part that vibrates when you rev...

slappy, you're another voice of reason....80mpg....yeah, that sucks.

Well, the inventor was Dutch... lots and lots of people in Holland going about to and from work, school, the supermarket, visits, on bicycles or scooters. Not the business attire type, true, but they dont make up the majority of the population anyhow. Mothers with kids (bicycles), elderly folk (scooters), brash young folk (scooters), students and regular workers (bicycles). So there's a market for envi-friendly scooters as well, I'm sure, though it'll take 'market share' from other scooters and bikes rather than from cars.

Bicycles are amazingly up-and-coming in Budapest too. You wouldnt believe it, because this city is, to European standards, car-infested. Its a big thing, and it's funny because it's so different from in Holland. In Holland bicycling is just something practical, everybody does it, really, barring the business suit types. Here it's like, a statement. Twice a year they have a bike parade that takes over the main throughfares of the city for hours. A rare bit of semi-political engagement in this otherwise pretty apathetic country. And they're having success, I must say - ever new bike paths propping up through the city. Good thing too, because a city like this - relatively compact, compared to American cities of the same population, with decent public transport and sidewalks everywhere - really shouldnt be as car-infested and -polluted as it is.

Nimh...I'm seriously interested in this...as far as the different culture over there.

how do people bring home all their groceries on a scooter?

On any given Saturday, I have to bring home the ingrediants for meals for at least 5 days, cleaning supplies, all sorts of stuff, and there are only 2 of us and neither one of us are what you'd call major consumers.

Even if it were viable to shop almost every day...I wouldn't care to do that, it takes up way too much time.

Plus, like I said, the weather is a big factor. It's too hot to bring home cold stuff on a scooter or bike, you'd be wasting food.

I only live 10 miles from work, and I can get home in about 20 minutes. If I had to take a scooter, I couldn't take the highway, and it would probably take a good hour to hour and a half to get home. Same way in the morning.

It sounds like it really works well in Holland, and as sumac as said, urban environments.

But truth be told, there's just as many people, maybe more, that live AROUND an urban area, but not IN it, or they live in more rural settings.

Austin for instance, has I think a million people in the immediate area, but very few living in the small downtown proper. It's about 20 miles north/south and about the same east/west.

People like to talk about city life, and living and working in a city. The fact of the matter is, that's not how many people live.

Instead of "forcing" (I'm not meaning that literally) to live in a city environment so these type of things (not meaning scooters per say) can be used....why not look at how people who DON'T live in the middle of a big city live, and research transportation options based on that?

I've lived way out in the middle of nowhere, and I hated it. I've never lived IN a city, but that's not me either. I'm not part of suburban sprawl, I, along with lots of others, live in a fairly dense suburban environment, a mile or two from downtown.

It kinda sorta feels like when a woman goes shopping and can only find clothes that fit skinny woman. We're "supposed" to want to fit those clothes, instead of designers making clothes for someone that isn't 5'11" and 105 pounds. We want clothes for someone whose 5'5" and 140-145 pounds.

People who live in an environment that is not scooter/bicycle friendly need options for how WE have to move around on this planet.

A lot of interesting points and posts. And no, I don't think that it will ever replace the car, or perhaps even the gas-powered scooter or mopeds (although their engines are weak, I hear).

But if you think of all the people who do use bikes to get around, if the environment were conducive to them, then I think there would be niche market.

I am out in the boonies, and could not use them. No sidewalks or bike paths, and I think I would be afraid to use them on the roads with the semis and SUVS.

But if I had a safe place to ride them, I could use them (weather permitting), but would have to shop more than once a week.

From what I've seen of the American traffic and style of driving (very defensive) I wouldn't dare go out on a scooter if I lived there.

The car rules....and yes, I was pulled over for going too slowly. Well...I didn't have a clue where I was.

The other thing that I did wrong, was to get out of the car, like I would in Britain if I was stopped. He didn't like that at all.
When he heard the Brit accent though, he was OK and let me off with a warning.

I only had the car for two days....and was bloody glad to hand it back.

And why is it that it is virtually impossible to walk anywhere? Big wide roads, roaring traffic...you see some shops on the other side of the road, and then HAVE to drive half a mile in a circuitous route just to get there. Either that, or get splatted, or ticketed for jaywalking.

Stick to a car, Chai. I would, if I lived there.

That is just the point. This place is built for cars....hard to do alternatives when nothing is planned for alternatives. Bike trails for exercise and a weekend jaunt isn't the same thing at all.

Hmm, not sure about scooters but you'd be amazed at what a Dutch housewife (or -man) manages to pile on his bike. Basket in front, basket in the back, bag on the steer ;-)


Thats probably part of it. Many people stopping by at the supermarket on a daily basis, for groceries, food, daily stuff - saving the Saturdays just for the 'big' stuff like cleaning and DYI stuff and the like.

Thats possible because cities are way more compact, and commutes shorter. Unless you live somewhere out in the countryside or in the most unlucky of suburbs, there should be a supermarket at walking (or at least bicycling) distance.

In turn, they're smaller than US supermarkets. So-called "hypermarkets" on the edge of town are still relatively absent, and if they exist, more of an outing/weekend trip kind of thing.


Its all intertwined though - it takes so much time, I'm guessing, because the shopping malls are large but therefore further away - and harder to reach except by car. A question of urban planning.


Only if you'd be on your way for more than 15 minutes... though granted, its also simply cooler in Holland, of course (except for right now)


Right. 10 miles is a fair enough commute for the average Dutchman, I'm guessing. I've been extremely lucky in that I've always been able to actually walk to work, barring the one internship I had to take a 10-min bus ride too. But many people can indeed bicycle to work (though the number of commuters does rise when you get to middle/upper office jobs). Hell, a government or two ago, the state offered its employees a kind of bonus or tax deduction thing if they travelled by bike.


Yep. I'm sure that Osso will nod a hearty sigh when I again say: urban planning. Is everything.

Sprawl is not just ugly, it's also the death for any kind of environmentally sensible mobility. Good public transport and the opportunity to take the bike instead of the car, even just for shopping if not the work commute - it all depends on sensible urban planning. On having a condense city rather than endless sub- and ex-urban sprawl; on business parks and industries being located near train stations or public transport hubs rather than in the middle of nowhere; on roads having bike lanes or even just pavements (you can not imagine my shock when I first heard streets in many US cities dont have pavements!); on newly-built suburbs coming with their own centrally located shopping centres and cultural places; etc etc.

Holland, having had to deal with sparse space and land created by force from water, has by necessity become a centre of expertise when it comes to spatial planning. But all the above elements are implemented pretty extensively in most other European cities and suburbs as well.


That's not just a "that's just how things are" kind of thing though. There are choices underlying that.

I mean - I'm not talking rural communities, they represent an ever smaller slice of the population anyhow. But when it comes to the booming sub- and exurbs, the (im)possibility of mobility options is a question of choice; both on a policy level of urban planning, and on a consumer choice level (do you choose to live somewhere where you'll be wholly dependent on your car?).


But a fairly dense suburban environment, just a mile or two from downtown - that kind of environment can be adapted very well to a choice of public transport and non-car transport (cycling, walking). Depending on how it is planned - where the shops are located, how far away the business parks and factories are from residential areas and how they are connected, what the road system is like, etc.

Of course, simply out of necessity, Europe has a lead on this - the US, always having had ample space, has enjoyed the luxury of not having to think about it. But with global environment problems making the world "smaller", there will have to be some change.


For sure. It's hard to play catch-up in areas that have already been built, without regard of the relation of construction to sustainable environment, community cohesion, etc.

First thing to do I think is to at least be smarter about new development. Second thing is looking into how existing development can be adapted.

If you live 15 miles from your work, you cant go bicycling, obviously, not unless you're the really sportive type. Fersure.

Hell, if the roads dont have bike-paths, if traffic is dangerous, you cant even go bicycling for 4 miles. If there's no pavements, no regular street-crossings like Lord Ellpus said, people will have to even take the car to the shop two blocks down. Those are already things that can be changed.

A "fairly dense suburban environment", moreover, can be well served by commuter trains, buses or some kind of hybrid light rail. That in turn, however, implies that the stigma public transport has, in the US far more than in Europe, is removed - which in turn necessitates making public transport, above all, clean, safe and reliable.

There's also mix-solutions available when public transport is only properly available downtown or in parts of the city. We have Park & Ride type of things, you can have a single cheap ticket that affords you to drive to a near enough station, park safely there, and take the train downtown. In Holland they're experimenting with systems where spacious car parks on the edge of downtown are matched with bus or light rail connections into the centre, for those who come shopping or day-tripping.

Barring the true countryside, there's all kinds of answers, but they do require planning and public investment. And, on a deeper level, a sense of collective responsibility for public space (just to go cursing in the American church of individualism).

In return, however, you get less sprawl, less pollution, less traffic jams, and more pleasant neighbourhoods and cities.