Imagine there's no heaven...

How confusing, anyway using your map:

Ireland is betrayed as being very religious, it also has no abortion laws, low crime and is the 2nd richest country per head of population in the world. So this country alone proves your theory wrong.

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selfruled wrote:

Look here my friend:

I will conduct myself in this forum in the manner which I find more convenient as long as I don't violate the site's rules. I've dealt with these situations hundreds of times so don't expect me to run for cover before your pathetic attempt to invalidate my original question by using and abusing ad hominem.

Solidarity will not get you very far, confusing the arguments maybe will buy you some time, pointing out a typing mistake is pitiful! and pretending not being able to understand only confirms the agnostic nature of your spirit; so read this brief message and weep for your emotional crutch later:

SOME countries as they've become less religious have been able to offer their citizens a higher quality of life. This is supported by the map and the stats I've posted so far. This is not the word of god; you don't have to agree with me or with the evidence presented; you're welcome to offer your opinion on the facts not on selfruled. If you feel better atacking the person rather than the facts it only proves that your substancial debate experience hasn't really helped you become a more informed individual; worse yet; it proves that emotion, not reason rules your forum participation.

Sulfruled, A2K is different from any forum you have ever been in. I guarantee it. The people here are not "hot heads" that will just take off with any argument you present merely because you presented it. Intrepid has done what is standard here and asked of you to back up your assertion. You tried to back it up by changing your original claim. (or something along those lines) That's not going to work around here. Most of the people here have studied some of this stuff to an extent you wouldn't believe and have a very good knowledge base of the things they debate about.

This is a pretty good place. It can be fun as well as challenging. You'd be much better off to come in with the attitude "that YOUR substantial debate experience hasn't really helped you become a more informed individual" than to accuse others of it because they don't agree with you or have proven you wrong. You'd be better off to "wade in" as suggested before than jumping in with both feet. Test the waters here. Find out who's who, what they are about first before you make assumptions about them or the way they present their arguments. I hope you will stick around and give people a chance here. I think down the road you'd really enjoy it and fit in pretty well. I can tell already there's a few things I'd like to have a go at with you. Just take a deep breathe and slow down a little and you will be fine.

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hephzibah wrote:

The people here are not "hot heads" that will just take off with any argument you present merely because you presented it.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!!! HOW CAN YOU EVEN MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!!! I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO INSULTED IN ALL MY LIFE!!!

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BDV wrote:

How confusing, anyway using your map:

Ireland is betrayed as being very religious, it also has no abortion laws, low crime and is the 2nd richest country per head of population in the world. So this country alone proves your theory wrong.

No; it just makes a very interesting argument. Thanks for pointing it out. You see, when I say "some" countries arguments like yours make total sense; the open up discussions which will eventually shed some light in a very complicated topic; your comment to me says: "No, that's not always the case"; and forces me to further question: But why in some countries that seems to be the case? What's at stake here? what forces are being applied?

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hephzibah wrote:

selfruled wrote:
Look here my friend:

I will conduct myself in this forum in the manner which I find more convenient as long as I don't violate the site's rules. I've dealt with these situations hundreds of times so don't expect me to run for cover before your pathetic attempt to invalidate my original question by using and abusing ad hominem.

Solidarity will not get you very far, confusing the arguments maybe will buy you some time, pointing out a typing mistake is pitiful! and pretending not being able to understand only confirms the agnostic nature of your spirit; so read this brief message and weep for your emotional crutch later:

SOME countries as they've become less religious have been able to offer their citizens a higher quality of life. This is supported by the map and the stats I've posted so far. This is not the word of god; you don't have to agree with me or with the evidence presented; you're welcome to offer your opinion on the facts not on selfruled. If you feel better atacking the person rather than the facts it only proves that your substancial debate experience hasn't really helped you become a more informed individual; worse yet; it proves that emotion, not reason rules your forum participation.

Sulfruled, A2K is different from any forum you have ever been in. I guarantee it. The people here are not "hot heads" that will just take off with any argument you present merely because you presented it. Intrepid has done what is standard here and asked of you to back up your assertion. You tried to back it up by changing your original claim. (or something along those lines) That's not going to work around here. Most of the people here have studied some of this stuff to an extent you wouldn't believe and have a very good knowledge base of the things they debate about.

This is a pretty good place. It can be fun as well as challenging. You'd be much better off to come in with the attitude "that YOUR substantial debate experience hasn't really helped you become a more informed individual" than to accuse others of it because they don't agree with you or have proven you wrong. You'd be better off to "wade in" as suggested before than jumping in with both feet. Test the waters here. Find out who's who, what they are about first before you make assumptions about them or the way they present their arguments. I hope you will stick around and give people a chance here. I think down the road you'd really enjoy it and fit in pretty well. I can tell already there's a few things I'd like to have a go at with you. Just take a deep breathe and slow down a little and you will be fine.

I thank you for taking the time to explain how this forum works. Now please try and believe me too that I've really seen this before; including that which you accuse me of... judging the new person behind the avatar too soon. :wink:

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The geographical map showing religiosity does not have data on Russia's religiosity. Notice how Russia is colored in with a dark grey. You will notice that the 90%-20% bar does not have that color. There is no way one can miscontrue that geographical data to suggest data is being supplied about Russia. Russia is, however, a very religious society. When Russia had a communist government the peoples' religiosity and superstition was suppressed along with any skepticism that contradicted the official state religion. The state religion was fraudulently promoted, much like Intelligent Design is today, to be scientific. Once communist government essentially came to an end the people publicly distrusted science and their religiosity and superstition ran rampant. Russia is now full of poltergeists, alternative medicines, faith healers, UFOs, and so on and the infant mortality rate increased, diseases spread rampantly, medical standards dropped significantly, and life expectancy decreased. It was ultimately the lack of freedom of speech and ideas that caused the outburst of religiosity and superstition and those were the causes for the reversal of their development.

Ireland's success as a country is a very recent phenomenon. The country was an absolute wreck until the last few decades. It was not until they joined the European Union that the country actually began to develop. The European Union has pumped ~55 billion EUR (~72 billion USD) into Ireland. Since then the country began converting from an agricultural society to an industrialized one. Tax breaks were given to the citizens for 10 years straight to help the country get on its feet. Through this massive reformation of Ireland they experienced an economic boom they have affectionally called the Celtic Tiger. Ireland would be nowhere near its current state if it had not joined the European Union. The European Union, I should add, is very secular. It is quite telling that the only religious country to rank high on the human development index--the strongest counter-argument the theists in this topic have used thus far--is only high on that list because of the very secular European Union. I love the irony.

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Mmmm... how very interesting...

Would you say that Ireland is a prosperous society despite its religiousness?

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Ireland's growth has been spectacular, thanks to the EU. But it started from a low base. In absolute terms c.f. other European countries, Ireland is far from pushing the ceiling.

I like Ireland, I have had many good holidays there. But the stultifying influence of the Roman Catholic Church is still all too pervasive for me.

(Having walked Croagh Patrick a couple of times, I am qualified to comment Smile

)

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NickFun wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
The people here are not "hot heads" that will just take off with any argument you present merely because you presented it.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!!! HOW CAN YOU EVEN MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!!! I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO INSULTED IN ALL MY LIFE!!!

Thanks for proving me wrong nickfun :wink:

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selfruled wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
selfruled wrote:
Look here my friend:

I will conduct myself in this forum in the manner which I find more convenient as long as I don't violate the site's rules. I've dealt with these situations hundreds of times so don't expect me to run for cover before your pathetic attempt to invalidate my original question by using and abusing ad hominem.

Solidarity will not get you very far, confusing the arguments maybe will buy you some time, pointing out a typing mistake is pitiful! and pretending not being able to understand only confirms the agnostic nature of your spirit; so read this brief message and weep for your emotional crutch later:

SOME countries as they've become less religious have been able to offer their citizens a higher quality of life. This is supported by the map and the stats I've posted so far. This is not the word of god; you don't have to agree with me or with the evidence presented; you're welcome to offer your opinion on the facts not on selfruled. If you feel better atacking the person rather than the facts it only proves that your substancial debate experience hasn't really helped you become a more informed individual; worse yet; it proves that emotion, not reason rules your forum participation.

Sulfruled, A2K is different from any forum you have ever been in. I guarantee it. The people here are not "hot heads" that will just take off with any argument you present merely because you presented it. Intrepid has done what is standard here and asked of you to back up your assertion. You tried to back it up by changing your original claim. (or something along those lines) That's not going to work around here. Most of the people here have studied some of this stuff to an extent you wouldn't believe and have a very good knowledge base of the things they debate about.

This is a pretty good place. It can be fun as well as challenging. You'd be much better off to come in with the attitude "that YOUR substantial debate experience hasn't really helped you become a more informed individual" than to accuse others of it because they don't agree with you or have proven you wrong. You'd be better off to "wade in" as suggested before than jumping in with both feet. Test the waters here. Find out who's who, what they are about first before you make assumptions about them or the way they present their arguments. I hope you will stick around and give people a chance here. I think down the road you'd really enjoy it and fit in pretty well. I can tell already there's a few things I'd like to have a go at with you. Just take a deep breathe and slow down a little and you will be fine.

I thank you for taking the time to explain how this forum works. Now please try and believe me too that I've really seen this before; including that which you accuse me of... judging the new person behind the avatar too soon. :wink:

Don't listen to me... I know nothin.... Twisted Evil

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I havn't the time to keep up with these comments, but I should note the obvious fact that until recently the Irish very busy killing killing each other on religious grounds.

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Get with the times JL! EVERYONE is killing everyone for religious reasons! The Siites, the Muslims, the Catholics, the Jews...EVERYONE! "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

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Nothing like an atheist to stir up the bees... Very Happy

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A bunch of theists and atheists...giving blind guesses as though they were sharing facts about the REALITY.

Sad!

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So you're just gonna wait until you die to make up your mind Frank?

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Isn't the whole reason we are in Iraq is to being Christianity to the god-less Middle Easterners? We are there to bring them OUR God -- not their inferior Allah God. George Bush will make them all Christians if he has to kill every man, woman and child to do so! God Bless America!!!

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Naahh...

He'll stop as soon as the collection plate starts emptying this way... Rolling Eyes

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ubermensch wrote:

So you're just gonna wait until you die to make up your mind Frank?

What the theists and atheists are doing...is NOT "making up their minds", Uber.

They are making guesses about the unknown rather than simply acknowledging that they do not know.

At least, that is my guess.

The idea that a blind guess...based on damn near nothing...is "making up one's mind" is a riot.

Twisted Evil

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Maybe it is because the country does not share its wealth well

selfruled wrote:

BDV wrote:
How confusing, anyway using your map:

Ireland is betrayed as being very religious, it also has no abortion laws, low crime and is the 2nd richest country per head of population in the world. So this country alone proves your theory wrong.

No; it just makes a very interesting argument. Thanks for pointing it out. You see, when I say "some" countries arguments like yours make total sense; the open up discussions which will eventually shed some light in a very complicated topic; your comment to me says: "No, that's not always the case"; and forces me to further question: But why in some countries that seems to be the case? What's at stake here? what forces are being applied?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

ubermensch wrote:
So you're just gonna wait until you die to make up your mind Frank?

What the theists and atheists are doing...is NOT "making up their minds", Uber.

They are making guesses about the unknown rather than simply acknowledging that they do not know.

At least, that is my guess.

The idea that a blind guess...based on damn near nothing...is "making up one's mind" is a riot.

Frank:

I think that there is a difference between a wild guess and a sense of certainty based on educated observations and conclusions.

Let's admit that we can't be certain that death is the end of our cosmical journey.

But we can certainly imagine a number of logical characteristics of this afterlife if it indeed was a reality.

For example:

1. It would have to be an universal phenomenon. Which means that all of us would "go" to pretty much the same place; all the billions of billions who have ever lived and who ever will.

2. Biologically speaking; there isn't any difference between mankind and the animal kingdom. At the molecular level, atom by atom we are no different from the plants either; so all of us living organisms would go to this afterlife; men, animals and plants.

3. It might be argued that man; even though is similar to the rest of the world organisms is really "different" since we are able to think. So let's stop for a second and admit that within the tissue of our brains there lies some kind of dormant force or "energy" which is what really would survive our physical death.

4. Let's add to this cosmic rendez-vous then the millions of "hommo-something" whose brains were in fact able to build some kind of thought process; including a few million neanderthals.

5. Somehow we tend to think of this afterlife as the culmination a life well lived here on earth; "a next step" let's call it. However millions of us would reach this after life at very different stages of our existence which includes millions of very old, tired and sick people, millions of little children and babies and millions of unborn embryos which resulted since prehistoric times from miscarriages and abortions. What will become of them in the afterlife? who will take care of them when they're certainly inferior compared to the rest of us who will have some kind of experience or points of reference to "adjust" to our new dwellings?

I'll stop here for now since the thought of nurseries, incubators and senior citizen homes in the afterlife is begining to sound so prosaic and cartoon-like I can't hardly continue typing.

Of course; it could be argued that in the afterlife we are given a new "slate" and that everyone starts fresh at the same level; all "speaking" english and stuff but then we would have to start dealing with how this knowledge was obtained and "who" is it that would provide this and why doesn't "he" just does that here and now to stop all the madness and the "horseshyt". Rolling Eyes

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Imagine there's no heaven...

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