Is a minimum wage necessary?

This is as sad as it is true but in too many cases.However, I don't think you can improve their lives by making them unemployable. In Florida, I saw more homeless people than I ever wanted to know there were. I also know plenty of people like my sister and Sozobe who lived in Co-ops for financial reasons (thought it was just to help afford college for them)... which is much the same as immigrants tend to do so they can send their excess dough home. I'm not suggesting that a substandard wage is good for anyone... but with conscientious adjustments to lifestyles... it is most certainly livable. This, I believe, is how most of the world survives... and it's a damn sight better than no wage at all.

All the hand wringing. I said in my original post that under the present system a living wage for the poor cannot be achieved. It will require awareness as to what can really be achieved plus a willing electorate to enforce an altered economic system. Call it what you are programmed to call it, when a man can work himself into an early grave and not make all the necesseties, it is time for a new way. That the new way will not even be attempted goes without saying. That the Jesus figure was correct in saying, "The poor you always have among you" also goes without saying. I could research how many poor people are dying in this nation alone, and make the result known to one and all- -the result would be- -more of the same.

I'll ignore your ad hominem about Bill being "prorammed" to say anything and just ask you this: Could you describe what "new way" you're thinking of?

I'm curious too (just so I can get busy trying to figure a way to exploit it for my selfish gain)(without which, it won't be funded)(really).

Thanks for saying it anyway, edgar...

I think you all know what I mean, and I am not going to go there just now. It is too time consuming during the work week.

Good Morning.

I only read up through page 2 so far, so if this has been addressed so far, sorry.

Re: Talking about the economics of raising minimum wage for employees at let's say a McDonalds or Walmart by .50 cents.

It's been said that the minimum wage worker can go to work for burger king, etc. if they are paying .50 cents more....In reality though, for someone make minimum wage, it might include the hardship of getting to a different place. The BK across the street may not be hiring when you want to switch. Buses cost money and time. Cars for minimum wage workers are a near luxury. Plus, what if you have to miss just one day of work between the change? At 5.00/hr, that's a loss of $40.00. It would take the worker 80 hours to make up missing one day of work. Switching jobs can be counterproductive to making more. What if the new place could not accommodate your schedule as well? What would you do about school, children etc?

Looking at the McDonalds website:
Worldwide they employee 1.5 million people, have 31,000 restaurants, and serve 47 million customers a day.

Taking out managers and corporate people, I cypher these really overkill numbers.....

45 employees at each store. (I'm sure there arent' that many at most)
40 hours a week for each employee. (Many/most don't work 40 hours)
1515 customers served daily is 10,612 a week.

The big increase per customer?....

17 cents.

Not even noticeable I'd say when you're ordering 5 to 10 dollars worth of food.

Sure there's an increase in employer social security tax and probably other costs I'm not considering, but still, I don't think the 17 cents per customer is way off the mark.

Looking at other large corps that pay minimum wage, I'd guess the effect would be the same.

Paying people more would encourage the corps to train their employees to work more efficiently....not picking on fast food restaurants, just using them as an example again...We've all been in the situation where we've watched 5 people stand behind the counter, and it takes forever to get a lousy hamburger. There is a Wendy's near where I work that must have super manager working there. I have NEVER seen such fast accurate service from ANYplace, let alone a fast food restaurant as this one. Sometimes, going through the drive through, you only stop your car out of courtesy....Actually one time, as I paid, the next guy was already hanging my bag out the window ahead....joking, I actually didn't even stop my car, I just coasted through, grabbed the bag, calling to the guy "You're too fast!" Made him laugh too.

There's a lot of wasted time out there. For the 50 cents an hour extra, more customer service would be expected and given, increasing customer satisfaction, increasing the number of customers coming back....increasing revenue...it's a win/win.

Something that hasn't been addressed so far in this thread is wage inflation beyond the minimum wage employee. Minimum wage jobs have historically been considered as entry-level jobs with the hope of advancing into better pay with time and experience. The trickle-up effect of increasing the minimum wage applies to everyone on the payscale grid.

If you've been working at minimum wage for a couple years and have moved into a better paying job then chances are your going to expect a wage increase once the minimum wage increases to maintain your well-earned compensation gap above the entry-level employee. It keeps going up from there.

I wish everyone could make a living wage, but I don't see it happening. Increasing the EITC is one way to put more buying power in the hands of those who need it most at the expense of those who can afford it.

Although the topic is "minimum wage," we have many retired seniors that must choose between food, shelter, or needed drugs.

The poor who live from paycheck to paycheck, and cannot save for their retirement will eventually become the senior poor.

As I've said, this topic is a complex one with many variables that cannot be answered by generalities.

I borrowed this from Walter on another thread:

From an opinion in today's Chicago Tribune (page 13) by Clarence Page:

Quote:
[...]
President Bush used to proclaim that illegal immigrants were taking "jobs Americans don't want." He more recently adjusted his rhetoric to refer more accurately to "jobs Americans are not taking." If the jobs paid more, more Americans probably would take them. But that runs the risk of reducing profits for employers or raising prices for consumers. Rather than risk a price hike for lettuce, many Americans prefer to look the other way. The result is what I call a make-believe immigration policy of laws that few people feel bound to respect.
[...]
The very fact that the hearings are being held around the country is a signal that we are probably not going to see any reconciliation of the two bills into something Bush can sign this year. By the time the hearings are over, it will be fall and time for midterm election campaigns to begin, which is a time when nothing of consequence happens in Congress.

Meanwhile, the burdens that our make-believe immigration policy imposes on low-wage earners, immigrant and nonimmigrant alike, continue. Their labors are devalued in a crowded labor market. The gap between highest and lowest earners continues to grow as the real income of low-wage earners continues to stagnate.

Raising the minimum wage would help, just for starters. Raising the Earned Income Tax Credit would help more.
[...]


Online (full version): They're illegal when we say so

Sorry be away for a bit. In answer to flushd - I don't have a concrete solution (if I did I would run for office) - just it doesn't appear (in most cases) that minimum wage will actually help people it is supposed to help. I could be wrong, but in most cases it seems to just push prices up.

The other big problem I see is it ends up harming small businesses. Larger businesses like the WalMarts could absorb the costs, however smaller businesses may not. I picture a mom and pop type store that can only afford low wages. Perhaps some one that works there does so for a second income or like my dad did for something to keep him busy. Now why wouldn't they work for WalMart that would pay him more (as at least in my area they pay above minimum wage any way)? Because he likes the owners, it is a nice friendly place to work, pleasant working environment (not everyone works just for he paycheck). But now minimum wage increases, mom and pop cannot afford to keep the store open without losing money - they close.

If minimum wage did help the poor - meaning overall prices would not increase (however, this is not possible if the minimum wage is set above the equilibrium wages) then I would say sure it makes perfect sense. And if there was no effect to the smaller businesses then again I would say sure.

Another point is if minimum wage keeps increasing, the demand to hire illegals would also increase. Why wouldn't you risk hiring some one that would work for pennies, if the increased costs of hiring others is so high, that the risks of getting caught becomes worthwhile?

I am also all for raising the minimum wage IF it does help the people it is intended to - the question is….does it? That is what I am proposing. So far not one person has given any hard facts or support that it does. Honestly, raising the minimum wage really won't personally affect me one way or the other. My concern is it is all for naught? Not even looking at the economy as a whole - is it doing anything for the poor? If Mr. Poor gets an increase in salary of $100 a month and then his food costs, electricity, rent, etc goes up by $100 is he any better off? That is the question I am posing - not that we shouldn't help others. But is this really helping them or is this just political?

The problem squinney is the CEOs have enough control to raise their wages and bonuses. It does happen sometimes that these CEOs are thoughtful and kind enough to not collect a bonus or raise in times where the economy is down, but typically they keep the same or increase. I remember a couple of years ago where I did not get a raise (two years in a row) because the company profits were down. I didn't cry - I realized I was lucky got a good paying job when others were being laid off - I doubt our CEO did without though. And I know of another large company where employees were being laid off because of a downturn, but Mr. CEO still got his huge bonus.

As terrible as this is - how does increasing the minimum wage solve this? Mr. CEO will still get his big paycheck and bonus (do you really think he is going to cut his money?) He will either raise prices or make cutbacks (layoffs perhaps) - both these will come back and bite the little guy - not help him.

Thank you Thomas for explaining it much more clearly. I am more a numbers person than a writer. It puts people out of work, because a company can hire as many people as they want. For example, if they costs go up and McD's decide to lay an additional person per each shift, then people ordering will simply have to wait longer. At my former company when costs went up, they simply did not hire anyone else when some one left. We had to in their words "absorb" the work. Basically we had to do more work per person.

coming in late
Pardon my late entry:

Basic Economics:

What I don't understand is how ANYONE (over 18 as example) can get along on under $8/hr who isn't living at home and getting welfare or assistance of some sort. What about those people who live on their own and pay rent, eat 3 meals, (never mind owning an insured car) ANYWHERE in USA?

Never mind a particular political bias - Rep or Dem -- how does a person survive on that little money? Save for the future? fuhgeddaboudit!

Do the math. Why force people to live at near-slave wages. Some people aren't able to get the training needed to advance for various reasons beyond their control (learning disabilities, etc.) Do you want YOUR family member living at that little of living wage?

Some interesting research and poll info:

"A January 2005 report by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center shows Americans overwhelmingly support an increase in the minimum wage: 82 percent say it is an important priority and only 6 percent oppose an increase."

Oh yes, one more thing...the current Federal minimum wage ($5.15/hr.) for workers receiving the current minimum wage cause yearly earnings to be only $10,700 a year -- almost $6,000 below the poverty line for a family of three!

I agree 100 percent that the minimum wage needs to be increased. It's a matter of how much and how fast. A gradual increase to keep up with inflation is one idea that I support.

I know it's only semantics, but $5.15/hour is not slave labor. Many people in this world works for slave labor wages, because they have no other form of social insurance like food stamps and medical care. Some are unable to even find jobs that pays anything like in North Korea where people are literally starving to death.

It is claimed that many people in Chica that works in the factories can't afford to buy the products they produce, because their wages are so low. Can that be considered slave labor?

Balancing things out...?
An Excerpt from :

Minimum-Wage Increase Fails
Rate Has Stayed Same for 9 Years

By Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 22, 2006; Page D02


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/21/AR2006062101069.html

"In campaigns across the country, Democratic House and Senate candidates are contrasting the stagnant pay for the country's lowest-paid workers with the regular cost-of-living pay raises lawmakers have granted themselves in recent years.

Just last week, the House rejected an effort to block a $3,300 annual increase in the base salary for a member of Congress. If the raise goes through, rank-and-file members will earn $168,500 -- a $31,600 increase since the last minimum-wage increase was enacted in 1997.

The Senate yesterday also rejected 53 to 45 a Republican alternative to the Kennedy provision that would have raised the minimum wage by $1.10. The GOP package included numerous sweeteners for small businesses to offset higher employment costs.

"If we do not balance a minimum-wage increase with economic relief for the small businesses, we will stifle job creation and shut the employment door on the very individuals we are trying to help," said Sen. Mike Enzi (R-Wyo.), author of the GOP alternative.

For Democrats and Republicans alike, the minimum wage is a symbol of the two parties' different ideologies and governing priorities. Unlike the war in Iraq and high gas prices, Congress can affect the minimum wage at will.

Polls have shown that the public overwhelmingly supports a minimum-wage increase. Despite the lack of action at the federal level, 21 states plus the District of Columbia have raised the wage rate for their residents, and six more states could follow in November, through ballot initiatives. Only two states, Oregon and Washington, have minimum wages of $7.25 or more."

Ragman, Good article; it's good to see that most Americans support a minimum wage increase. Our congress fails in so many ways to listen to the people, it's a wonder they survive in office.

Hi C.I.

As always, it's a pleasure to share an Internet space with you. I hope you and your family are all well and you're still traveling at your leisure.



I must take exception to what you stated previously:
To speak of workers elsewhere in the world is off-point for this discussion here. This issue is about minimum wage in USA. In this country, working at $5.15/hr or LESS is definitely below poverty level and particularly so for a family of three. Below poverty level is NOT slave labor...pardon the slight dramatization. However, if you are trapped by such a low salary can that not be viewed as a type of slavery? You can't afford to look for another job because you are bound there by your bills to permit your own family's survival.

Hi, Ragman, and welcome to A2K. This thread is now up to 10 pages. To catch the full flavor the the discussion, you need to go back to page 1.

I thought about trying to summarize what has been said, but it simply can't be done. We've talked about minimum wage vs living wage; the notion of a Federal minimum wage vs some kind of state-by-state system; what is meant by poverty; the effects on small bussesses of increasing the minimum wage, and on and on. If you have a chance, please scan through all of that.
And, again, welcome.