Is a minimum wage necessary?

Works for me.

Nice to see you here, J_B!

Works for me too, but that's a very Unitarian Jihad thing of you to say. ("We will take over television studios, kidnap so-called commentators and broadcast calm, well-reasoned discussions of the issues of the day.") I'm a libertarian for crying out loud. Aren't you supposed to argue with me?

I have a libertarian bent myself, Thomas. I'd much rather see human kind take care of it's own without involvement of the state, but the pragmatist side of me realises it simply doesn't work that way. I'd much rather see the level of income taxes redistributed to help increase the buying power of the working poor.

I just read through the 4 or 5 pages of this sucker. Thanks, Linkat, for posing this question, and for the civility of the responses.
I reckon I would agree with the notion that there ought to a "minimum wage." I would prefer that it not be federally mandated, but done on a state by state basis. and it should be below the "market" rate of pay in a locale. Government should prevent exploitation of workers, but not otherwise intervene. Several of yall have made a similar argument.

But then there is the notion, which I believe Edgar and Snood raised (not meaning to misinterpret), that seemed to suggest that a minimum wage should be equal to a living wage. Did I miss something there? Could be.

Thomas wrote about how, if the cost of labor goes up, businesses will replace workers with technology. That is happening.

And I close with this little story. I have 35 employees. A couple of years ago, 6 of them left about the same time (school, pregnancy, whatever). One of the survivors came to me and said: Johnboy, don't replace them with new hires. We will work harder; we will run faster. Split the difference between you (employer) and us (employees).

Some might aruge that a majority of the jobs out there enslave the employees, whether making minimum wage or high above it.

They make more so they buy more, have more payments, work more to pay for them...I suppose it goes on.

I don't really know what to think about minimum wage though.

People who are willing to work should not starve.
J-B might agree with anarchists (a legitimate political philosophy) that the State is something apart from human society. I argue that the State is in fact a form of organization OF human society. It is our job to keep it in good running order, and to modify it when necessary. All human society is political in nature. "Political" has to do with the organization of competition (so that it is not just an unruly fight) and the organization of mechanisms or social programs. The State's function of facilitating the gratification of human needs is the reason individuals and families have everywhere formed political-social systems.

That's true, but it's empty rhetoric in the American context. The average citizen of the world has a lower real income than he would get from an American minimum wage. And the average citizen of the world is far from starving, though his standard of living is much lower than the average American's. The minimum wage debate is legitimate and meaningful in terms of inequality and status. In terms of mere survival, it's rhetorical fluff more than anything else. Pure-hearted fluff, sure, but fluff nevertheless.

Thomas, I see your point. Throughout the world, tribal and peasant societies live ay levels far below our poorest citizens WHEN IT COMES TO CASH INCOME. But these people have two things going for them that our poor--especially our urban poor--do not enjoy. They produce their own food, or most of it, and they live among large groups of kinsmen which serve as their social security systems. Our poor depend on cash to purchase their food and vital services. Without a sufficient level of income they suffer greater vulnerability.

I have been one of and among [not now] the poorest Americans enough to know that even minimum wage does not pay the bills. As jl points out, conditions in this nation are much different than most others for the poor.

But "the bills" aren't a fixed quantity. They are a function of the fact that minimum wage earners, unlike the average citizen of the world, tend to live on a higher square footage, in houses with water-cleaned toilets and electricity, with warm and cold water, often with air conditioning, often with a microwave and a dish washer. More often than not, they own a car -- unlike the average citizen of the world, who owns a car less often than not. (Considering India's and China's great leap in consumer wealth, this is probably going to change, but I think it is still true right now.)

Needless to say, I don't begrudge American minimum wage earners these very modest comforts. I don't want them to live in houses without a water-cleaned toilet. I merely object to people's thoughtless repetition of the claim that America's poor are threatened in their physical survival unless the non-poor Americans help them more. This is simply not true. At least not for the vast majority of America's poor.

Has anyone every seen a study that denies that the poor of America have shorter life expectations?
And what has happened to the homeless? I don't see them on the streets of my city anymore. I don't believe for a moment that they have all be found homes.
Americans, it has been said many times, like to deny the very existence of the poor. Katrina (I saw on TV) pushed poverty (and racial inequalities--although it is not only about race as Edgar's experience shows) into our sphere of cognition.

I would like to have a nickle for every time my utilities were disconnected because my minimum wage job could not meet the expenses, because it was a choice of that or food and rent. I don't care how many statistics you read, you have to be there to see the real situation.

Yesterday morning I watched a local news show in which they did a story of a Houston family living beneath a tiny awning in a public park. The public donated money and got them out of there. The newsman said that are are many more stories just like that one out there.

About 1960 there was a minimum wage went into effect of $1.00 per hour and since I worked for a compnay in the warehouse I thought I was going to be rich (I made 65 cents at the time) but alas because i was a high school student I was not eligible for the minimum wage.

Reminds me of a well off guy I knew, said when he got his first job, at McDonalds, he was amazed that they let him work in such a swell place and even gave him money too.

Apart from the fact that you and I disagree, do you have any evidence that I haven't lived on a minimum wage for some time? Look, I'm not saying it's fun to be poor in America. It is not. But the point I am arguing against is that poverty in America means starvation. I'm sure you can find a few exceptions for which it does In your nation of 300 million people. But in general, a minimum wage, reasonably spent, does not mean you starve. That's all I'm saying.

Here are a few statistics concerning hunger in America.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



According to the U.S. Census Bureau, one in five children (approximately 15 million) in our nation live at or below the poverty line. In 1997, nearly two-thirds of poor young children lived in working families and young child poverty is growing fastest in the suburbs. In total, an alarming 22% of young children in America live in poverty.

Children who are denied an adequate diet are at a greater risk than other low income children of not reaching their full potential as individuals. Children who are undernourished have trouble concentrating and bonding with other children and are more likely to suffer illnesses that force them to be absent from school. They consistently perform more poorly on standardized tests. Poor performance early in school is a major risk factor for dropping out of school in later years. According to labor statistics, educational attainment is perhaps the greatest indicator of job and income mobility, so the impact of childhood hunger can be lifelong. Studies have also shown time and time again that even mildly undernourished children may potentially suffer abnormal brain, cognitive, and psychological impairment that, if not corrected, can be irreversible.



Children And Hunger: Hard Facts

10.5 percent of all U.S. households, representing 20 million adults and 13 million children, were "food insecure" because of lack of resources (U.S. Census Bureau survey -2000)

Over 9 million children are the recipients of food from either a pantry, kitchen or shelter. (America's Second Harvest - 2001)

22.2% of shelter clients indicated that their child/children was/were hungry at least once during the previous 12 months but couldn't afford more food. (America's Second Harvest - 2001)

Between 2000 and 2001, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 23% in American cities, with 54% of requests coming from families with children. (U.S. Conference of Mayors)



That you, in Germany, may live on a minimum wage is not really what I am concerned with at the moment. I am well aware that nations the world over have serious poverty. I happen to feel the USA can do much better by its poor than it has, and that is my central theme.

As is frequently the case, Snood is absolutely on target. Forget about "minimum" wage. The problem is that the wages of those people forced to work at the minimum wage level have not kept pace with inflation. I'm old enough to remember when the Federal minimum wage was .75 cents/hr. That was cool. A loaf of bread cost a dime back then. Gasoline was under .25 cents/gal. $12,000/ yr. was considered upper-middle-class sallary, really big bucks. Is a minimum wage law necessary? In a perfect world, no. Unfortunately, most rmployers, unless coerced either by unions or a minimum wage law, will pay their workers the least amount they can reasoably pay and still attract a work force. As has been suggested py s0ome economists, politicians and Snood, the minimum wage should be keyed to inflation. Massachusetts is an expensive place to live, compared to, say, the Deep South or the rust Belt. I think the state's new minimum wage proposal is a positive step.

There was a situation in my city, Edgar, where a group of homeless people had taken up residence under an elevated overpass. It was a perfect spot because they were high up, secluded, and, until recently, unknown.

They took care of the place; everyone had their designated areas, the rubbish was cleaned up and deposited in city trash cans.

City workers discovered the place and reported it to their bosses, who in turn decided to take swift and merciless action.

An elaborate system of spikes were attached to the cement (after all the property of the homeless was destroyed) and all available access to the site were secured with chains.

There are bastards in this world. Real, heartless bastards.

And I hope they burn in hell.

It goes on to varying degrees in every city, I have no doubt.