THE ANCESTORS OF THE ENGLISH, FRENCH, ECT. ARE:

cav, Did you say you're a chef in Toronto? My wife and I will be in Toronto in early August, and we still haven't made plans for places to eat. c.i.

Hello you all. It´s my first incursion in this forum. I´m spanish and I listened about here in other spanish forums, and well, here I am. About my interests, I´d say history, literature, sports, economy, gastronomy and not interested in astrology, ufo´s, parapsicology, religious beliefs, miths and so on, and dont´t pretend ofending anybody.
I´d like to ask you, where are the most of you? Is this an USA-Canada based forum? Or is it more global? And be free in asking me about what you want.
Talking about what Littlek said, well, I´d never had too much curiosity about that DNA table, in the sense they´ll probably show what´s evident: your closest DNA relation is with the people living closer to you, as you can see in the case of irish with scottish. In some sense is wrong talking about "THE ANCESTORS" of english, frenchs, and etc. Europeans countrys are populated since many centuries ago, and many actual countries took its name of the last country who conquered them: The english live in England because the Anglos conquered that land, but are english mainly anglos? I think very probably not. France took its name because the francs, a german tribe like anglos, but are frenchs mainly of francs origins? Sure that not. English probably have a big proportion of both the old britons, or said celtics, and before celtics the people of neolitic who built Stonehenge who live all across europe. Celtics and stonehenge´s people are the origins of biggest gens percentage of today´s english. If you walk from Sweden to Tarifa(the southern point of Spain) you´ll see indigenous people in each country very similar to the people of others countries, in Sweden are many people who look like norwegians, germanies and pollands, and so on, an if you arrive to Tarifa, you can see a few southern spaniards who look like some swedish, a few but they are. The fact is europe was well populated before History, that is, the first written documents. The pre-historic people, the stone builders of Stonehenge and many buildings in Spain, were few people but living all across europe, and they are the ones who gave us, the europeans, the similar look. After those people, came many others people which dont´t populated the same areas and added the different look at every actual country. Celtics are the last and closest common ancestor to many of europeans: The came from some place in actual Russia and lived all across europe, all western europeans have celtics ancestor, some have a biggers percentage of celtics ancestors than others, but we all have celtics in the family. We, spanish, talking about of ancestors, define ourselves as a celt-iberian people, being Iberians a people who probably came from middle-east through north africa or perhaps through the south of france, maybe the both paths, who populated the mediterranean coast and the east half of Spain. Iberians have an advanced civilization in some regions, and an alphabet, and their look surely were similar to the tipical spanish look(anglo version of spanish look), the "torero look". And the celtics probably were more clear, and with more blonde people and blue eyes, in spite the fact many celtics were of dark skin an dark hair. Well, celtics came to Spain after the Iberians and they dispersed along the northern Spain and the southwestern Spain, meaning Spain all the peninsula. Celtics and Iberians melted in the central plateau(actual Castilla) and they created a mixed culture, they could mixed their blood or not, but it´s sure they knew each others and influenced each others too. Celtics and Iberians are the main ancestors of spanish, in terms of percentage, and with differences inside of Spain today, I don´t say an spanish today say: I´m iberian or I´m celtic, but the fact in northern spanish countries celtics and prehistoric people suffere lesser thant southern spanish influence of Rome, and they weren´t occupied by muslims. Celtics and prehistorics people would be the people who gave spanish a common look with some northern europeans. And were the others invaders who gave to Spain a differente look to the rest of northern europeans, because spanish are very similar to many italians, frenchs or portugueses. When the romans finished the conquest of Spain, about 20 bChrist, there were about 5 millions spanish. Romans, by themselves, influenced few in terms of gens, in the sense Spains was very populated, and they alliated with spanish tribes or simply killed them. Some legionaires from Italia stablished in Spain, sure, but since Italians(with a bit degree of celtic gens too)were similar to old spanish, the influence was small, but in terms of culture was enormous, of course, Rome and Greece are our cultural parents. After the fall of Rome, german tribes entered in Spain, the main were suabians, who were to northwest Spain, and visigoths who controlled almost all Spain. They made the first spanish kingdom and influenced culturally(law and others), but they were very few people. I read some historians talking about if they were only 30.000 people, and others said figures of 300.000, but even this last figure is small in a population of about 6millions hispanorromans. And, at the end, the muslims: Muslim invasion is, of course, the differential aspect of Spain with the rest of Europe. But, again like the germans, they weren´t so many like people could think. An army of about 70.000 arabs officials and berbers troops invaded Spain by the 711 a.C and conquered the most of Spain, except the north, that like alway resisted the new invaders, like Asterix with the romans, with the difference the obstinate northerns spanish won, althoug they took 8 centuries for the victory. Muslims changed all in the conquered Spain, it was the change of a civilization by other quite different. Muslims promoted their religion not exactly by force, they tolerated hispanorromans being christians but they had and special tax for "infidels", thus, many "infidels" left the muslims lands and travelled to northern Spain, reinforcing the northern kingdoms. The clash of civilizations ended bad for muslims, but they influence was bigger, specially in the southern Spain, but in the rest of europe too. Give thanks to that spanish muslims we can read today Aristoteles and Platon, and learnt to distillery of spirited drinks(yes, spanish muslims liked wine and liquors, but this is other story) and many others glad things. Abderrahman I, who came to Spain from Siria for saving his life, built the first independent muslim kingdom, still by this time all conquered lands of muslims rendered tribute to the Damasco´s Khalifa, but AbderramanI finished with that. Aberraman was blonde and had blue eyes, strange for an arab? Maybe, and many of his descendants were blond too, and some of them who were khalifas tinted their hair in black for being more similar to their co-arabs offiacials. The slaves in that time weren´t black africans, but east and northern europeans, and muslims brought thousand of slavians from east europe for serving them as soldiers or simply slaves, having concubines or for working the lands hispnorromans left for going to northern Spain. Of muslims, the aristocrats and generals were mainly from Siria and Yemen, and the most of their troops were berbers from Marroq and Algeria, very recently conquered and "new muslims" too. Few people from north Africa stablished in Spain, as Spain had a bigger population. The most of muslims in Spain were hispanorromans converted to Islam, and almost of the Visigoth aristocracy, who converted to Islam because many of them kept their privileges. The slow march of northern spanish towards south was because of the deep roots of muslims in Spain: the most of muslims were as spanish as the christians spanish. The end of Reconquest was hard for them, they were oblied to convert to christianism or were expelled, and the most of them, as spanish as me, remained muslims and were expelled to north Africa. You know, Colon discovered America the same year Granada, last muslim kingdom in Spain, was conquered. Rodrigo de Triana was a sailor of Colon´s crew, and the one he first saw America. Colon had promished a gift to the first in seeing land, but he broke his promish. Rodrigo de Triana was a muslim converted to christianism, and after that he left Spain for ever and went to NAfrica.

Today, if you are with andaluces about a 33%, the southern spanish, are blondes and have blue eyes, why? I don´t know, but probably their celtic ancestors and posibly slavians ancestors have something to say about it, being the andaluces more brown or dark than the rest of Spain. There are many spanish who look like moors and vicebersa, but the most of spanish don´t look moors, simply "spanish", it´s not only a question of the colour of the hair or eyes, is the way of your face, body, etc. In fact,, berbers(the north africans) have many redhair people, with blue eyes, and usually are taller than spanish, well, really berbers are some of the tallest people of the earth, like wa-tutsis and scandinavians.
In the rest of Spain, the percentage of blue eyes is about a 30%, and the most of people have brown hair: from dark from to clear brown, and about a 20-30% are blonde or dark blonde, and are black hair people with blue eyes and vicebersa, but we don´t look this as an interesting fact. Only talking about sexual appealing we look to the way a person is built.
I find funny the terms Littlek talk about irish. Are you irish? Really, if irish are few, they talk too much about themselves! I don´t know what are those strange people called "black irish", the only blacks I know are the guinnes pints. Me, like many others thousands of spanish, went to Eire for learning english, with few succesful as you see, and see that irish are pleasing people and fond of music and partys as many of us are, but I saw many irish with brown eyes, and it seems as they are not "full irish" as you suggest. I listened funny stories about many spanish wrecked with the Invincible/Vincible Armada living and having family in Ireland, but this romantics stories are that: stories for a winter night, in spite of the fact some isolated case was true. I don´t like the way USA people talk about races, nor the way USA citizens talk about themselves as Americans: American is enormous, and USA is only a part of America. It seems as the fact of having blue eyes is still a privileged fact in USA or in the anglosaxons countries, like an aristocrat characteristic, tell it to Abderraman who tinted in dark his hair, you now: "we, the normal people, with blond hair and blue eyes, in spite many of the "we" have not blue eyes or blonde hair". And thus, from this point are written some nonsenses. If an irish has brown or black hair it doesn´t mean he has spanish ancestors, in the same way if an spanish has blue eyes doesn´t mean he has irish or scottish ancestors, like an australian woman said to me once, this is not a compliment for me.
I don´t know about black africans, meaning by "black" what we call black: people living at the south of Sahara desert and with curled hair and strong complexion, travelling out of Africa before of roman age, that´s sure. Blacks africans didn´t populated europe except in the 2ºhalf of XX century, the rest of this is pure fantasy.
Admit it, things are more racional than beliefs or people. People of today, wether if we are spanish, frenchs, chineses or egiptians, have ancestors of many places, and the oldest ancestors are usually the ones who gave us the common aspect and the recent ancestors who gave us the different aspect. And is the mix and variety of our mix the one who make our country.
If irish and spanish are close in the DNA table, is because once a tribe, in some place of france, divided their way ones to Ireland and others to Spain, but it doesn´t mean necessarily the members of that tribe were of black hair and brown eyes, and weren´t blacks africans.

Wow! That was quite a post. Well done Paco_El_Picadillo. You covered a lot of ground. I was aware of the Moorish influence in southern Spain. Here in the United States we have a real melting pot. I am part English, Scot, Irish and American Indian (Iroquois). Our children (my ex wife was from Finland) have Finnish, Swedish and Russian thrown into the mix. If I go back farther than that my head starts hurting. The Primary influence comes from the establishment of permanent colonies from England. As more and more people entered the country and were mixed in the distinction became meaningless. Welcome to our site. There are mostly Americans here but Australia England and other countries all enter into discussions. There are a lot of history afficionados so you'll probably get a deluge of discusssions. Ask us anything at any time. Glad to have you here.

Welcome, Paco, nice to hear another European voice here!

And congrats for your response!

Paco, WELCOME to A2K. I have traveled to Spain several times, and noticed variations in the different parts of Spain. The north-east, Madrid, the area around Avila, Seville, and Granada seems like different countries to the outside visitor. Thanks for sharing the information with those of us hungry for Spanish history. BTW, I have traveled to South America twice during the past six months, and the Spanish influence is evident. c.i.

Heck Setanta, when you travel back in time too open this Can of Worms, I hope you aren't going to rewrite history and change the natural order of things.
It was bad enough when God confused the tongues at the Tower of Babel.
I know you're good Setanta but short of a Second Coming, shouldn't we leave well alone, just in case we revert to caves and tree houses and we all get sent to Ancient Europe, heaven forbid.

Good afternoon Bobsmyth, Cicerone imposter and Oldandknew, and guten abend Walter Hinteler. Walter, another european more, but I´m now from the NEW europe, haha, since a particular man said that thing, I feel rejuvenated, now I see with new eyes the roman ruins in my city.

And about USA, I have my particular links with it. One grandfather, sailor, lived there 10 years,since the 1WW, based in NOrleans and sailing from there to everywhere, and he even got the USA passport, but once he made a trip to Spain for visiting his mother and found another woman, my future grandmother. My other grandfather lived and worked in several american countries by the same time, one of them USA of course. In the time first skycrapers were being built in N.York, he and his brothers worked in demolition of buildings there. That´s living against the main stream.

Paco

I've been to the place, from where the ancestor of that man came from.
(No further comment.)

Hello Paco. If you think your Roman ruins are something you should see me before I have my coffee in the morning. We are delighted to have someone from Spain here especially those of us interested in history. There's so much history that Spain has caused to happen. It will be wonderful to hear it from a different perspective. I've heard before that charge that we are arrogant. I prefer to think instead it's ignorance. Ignorance in the sense of not knowing rather than stupid. You're English is good and I have no problem understanding you. If we say something that needs clarification, don't hesitate to let us know so we can clarify it for you.

It's a strange world.

George W. Bush and Colin Power share a common ancestor not too far back. Don't remember the particulars -- but it was not more than 4 or 5 generations as I remember it.

Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots



CLICK THE TITLE TO SEE THE ENTIRE ARTICLE.

I'm sure, we'll find more about "the other ancestors" as well in future.

Where the English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish came from
When the Romans conquered the island known by them as Brittania (now known as Britain) the population was mainly Celtic - as was much of Europe. However the first few centuries AD saw huge population changes that eventually helped destroy the Roman Empire and change Britain forever. The Huns from far eastern Europe began to move westward pushing the Germanic peoples of central Europe backwards. The Germanic peoples were caught in a vice between the never ending onslaught of the Huns and the once powerful Roman Empire. After many wars between them all the Roman Empire was on the verge of collapse and the Roman legions were withdrawn from Britain to defend the dying empire.
The Celts in Britain after years of peaceful Roman rule were not capable of defending themselves from raiders from Ireland and North-West Europe, so they hired mercenaries from Angeln (An area that covers North Germany and Southern Denmark) and Saxony (North Germany but south of Angeln). However the mercenaries soon fell out with their employers and took over the area which which we now know as England. This started a wave of immigration from Angeln, Saxony and also by the Frisians (From the areas now known as the northern Netherlands and north-western Germany). These people completely took over the country and although many Celtic people remained in England, the majority of people were now Germanic in origin. By around the 6th century virtually nothing remained of the Romano-Celtic culture that had dominated England for centuries. The Celtic language and culture continued only in north Wales, Scotland, Cornwall and Ireland.
From the seventh century onwards new invaders came to Britain. These were the Vikings. They mainly came from Denmark but many too from Norway. They didn't just rape and pillage like in the movies. The Danish Vikings settled in England in huge numbers and became part of the gentic mixing pot of England. The Norwegian vikings had the biggest impact in North Scotland and Ireland - where they founded the city of Dublin. After the Vikings the Normans came from Northern France, but they themselves were the descendants of Viking peoples who had invaded France. There weren't many of them either so it's unlikely that the Normans affected the gene pool of England too much.
In a recent study of genetics shown on British TV it was shown that the English are mainly a mixture of Danes, Germans and Celts. The strongest evidence of German and Danish blood is in northern England. A surprising result of the study was that the Scottish seem to share the same genes as the south of England. I was suprised by this as I always imagined the Scots to have a strong Celtic heritage. South Wales is the same. The areas that are mainly Celtic are North Wales and Ireland. The Norwegian Vikings have a presence in far north Scotland and far north western England but it only a minimal presence

toosh27

Wellcome to A2K and thanks for your response!
Celts have been just ONE of many Indo-European tribes in Europe - and were in part absorbed into the Roman Empire as Britons, Gauls, Boii, Galatians, and Celtiberians.



Peaceful Roman rule?

Although Germanic foederati, allies of Roman and post-Roman authorities, had settled in England in the 4th century AD, tribal migrations into Britain began about the middle of the 5th century. The first arrivals, according to the 6th-century British writer Gildas, were invitedby a British king to defend his kingdom against the Picts and Scots.


Could you perhaps give a link to the mentioned study?

Where the English etc came from
Here is the link to find out more about where the different peoples of Britain originate from:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/bloodofthevikings/genetics_results_02.shtml

Thanks.

Many of the Europeans today are mutts like the Americans. There is a big mix of different lineages in the English, French, Irish, etc...

For example...

ENGLISH- Britons, Romans, Various tribes such as the Iceni, Celts, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Danes, Normans, Frisian(Frisia-Northern islands off the coast of Holland).

England was considered to be the 'new world' for many of the Frisians, Angles, Saxons, and Vikings.

FRENCH- Franks, Gaullians, Italians, Spaniards, Romans, Celts, Normans and Bretons.

IRISH- Celts, Vikings, Bretons, Angles, Saxons.

Your use of the word tribe caught my eye. To me, it suggests a small group. Did you have a number in mind?

I saw a programm about genes, it was an American research, and the conclusions were that a Japanese girl, for instance, can be genetically more connected with someone from Serbia than with someone from her homecountry Japan.