New Technology Opening Old Doors To Theories of the Mind

mind
Lola, I remember the song from the 50s (it was a tango): "Whatever Lola wants, Lola gets..." But seriously, you're absolutely right. The two topics of discussion, while not entirely unrelated, do tend to obstruct the progress of the other.

JLNobody

"Lead, follow or get out of the way."

I actually never liked that saying, but sometimes we lead, sometimes we follow and often I'm attempt to follow but not succeeding, and mostly I don't know what's going on or I don't care.

I think we compliment each other with our different perspectives, knowledge and/or insights, so there is a potential of learning one from the other.

Although when I use the word "I" it's always under question as to who's "using" it and what the hell "they" are talking about. So who's learning what and who wants to be "enlightened"? And as we have discussed, apparently at close scrutiny, "no one", or as you say, "noone", or "none"

Are we not on topic? Sure if you want to start another thread I'll be there although don't ask how. Or I could although I can't think of a starting point at this moment.

And certainly this thread is very interesting.

Twyvel,

Please don't think I'm discounting your thoughts or ideas. I'm just trying to define the boundaries of the discussion so we can focus. I know I have much to learn, and am always pleased when I have the opportunity. I do have a preference for something tangible, and I do prefer to think of myself as me. As an entity. So I'm just saying let's narrow this discussion and not debate the other part for now. I will be very happy if you stay. Although another thread sounds interesting too. Maybe both.

JLN,

That song does define my unconscious, (as it defines everyone's) it represents a wish. Of course, reality interferes, and it's too bad too. Or is it?

mind
Twyvel, please look at the thread "Have you ever experienced the numinous?" in the Religion and Spirituality forum. It is probably a more suitable venue for the kinds of issues we've been injecting into this thread. I'm am going to also stay with this thread, of course. But I DO HOPE to see you there (....numinous?). I hope others will find it interesting as well. Diane, you seem an obvious candidate.

Lola

I'm still here twiddling my thumbs

I just gotta work this week end. Next week I can start up. Sorry. Work before play.

Lola, this thread needs to stay on topic. I hope you weren't offended at my rather flippant suggestion of another thread, although I think the other subjects would be interestin g to pursue.

I'm on the road, so won't be able to spend much time online. Hopefully, we can have further discussion on the technology availble to psychiatry and psychoanalysis. It really is fascinating and the imnplications are enormous.

Work hard and we'll look forward to seeing you on Monday.

Lola
Just so you'll have something waiting for you when you get a break from work, the following is part of one of your previous posts and your exact meaning is not immediately clear to me i.e., you" try to help the patient identify metheds by which he/she can _avoid awareness_ of unconscious wishes". Why would you want the patient to--avoid awareness----? If they avoid it how can they learn to deal with it?


Psychoanalysis is thought to work because the analyst can help the patient identify methods by which he/she try to avoid awareness of unconscious wishes as well as identify what those wishes are. Once known, the patient is able to make better, more reality based decisions about what should be done about them. With knowledge, the person can try to achieve maximum gratification with a minimum of unpleasure (anxiety, depression, etc.)[/quote]

You said also somewhere that only a small portion of our mental activity is conscious----I was shocked when I first read that but then after giving it considerable thought and then after reading the article you provided it is obvious. The simultaneous operations of cognition that we are not actually aware of during consciousness and then during sleep we are not aware of much of anything but yet the neurons are making millions and millions of connections.

Do you think there is any possibility of ever having any more control over the unconscious mind than we now do?

freud
Perception, let me take a guess, before Lola responds to your interesting question on identifying methods to avoid of unconscious wishes. I'm thinking of terms like unconscious anxiety and defense mechanism. I understand that individuals with weak defenses are likely to suffer more anxiety than those who are well defended, as it were. And SOME wishes need to be repressed, for example in males the Oedipal sexual wish for the mother and the female's Electra impulses for the father. One cannot go through life with such desires or the memory of them. Or can't one? That's my question. Why can't an adult male acknowledge that as a child he wished to displace his father and sleep with his mother--and perhaps find amusement in so human an impulse. The fear of castration by the father seems too far-fetched for me. It's a classical paradigm, not a testable hypothesis, as much ideology as theory. The pain of guilt is not a separate matter I think: guilt, in the case, IS the fear of castration in classical Freudian terms. And fear of rejection by mother sounds too good to be true since that could underlie the average male's fear of being rejected by women in general. Such speculations are not testable, which is one reason, I suspect, that Freudian analysis has never been a subject of intensive study and training in university psychology departments. Instead, Freudianism has confined its teachings to "institutes" where Freud's theory is taught but not tested, perhaps for fear of putting the profession out of business. It would be as welcome as "experimental theology" at Notre Dame. Now, even if my accusation were true, it does not necessarily mean that the theory and the practice is neither true nor useful. It just points to the anxiety of freudians regarding their position in the scientific and medical worlds.

Perception, I think Lola means the opposite.

When the patient identifies methods by which s/he try's to avoid awareness, she becomes more aware. Once s/he is aware of the block s/he can then attempt to identify those wishes that were unavailable to her consciousness.


Yes, we are not aware of the functions of our own brain, but rather only of the end results of those functions, i.e. mental stuff.

Can consciousness influence something it is not aware of ?

Oh boy, am I tempted to answer these excellent questions. But I have to keep working. Tomorrow, between things, I may have a chance, otherwise I must wait until I have more time. Twyvel is correct in her answer about becoming aware of defenses and why this is considered helpful.

I will also say that contemporary psychoanalytic technique doesn't and hasn't for a very long time depended on the use of the theory of the oedipal complex. Of course, there are still hold outs, but that's true in many professions. Change comes only with death for some. But modern theory of technique revolves much more on the interpretation of defenses with the belief, borne out in the clinical situation, that once defenses are recognized, awareness of wishes follow. Of course, I don't want to indicate that psychoanalysis has only one technical approach. There are many schools of technique and theory now in psychoanalysis.

I will refer you all to a book, by Robert M. Galatzer-Levy, M.D., Henry Bachrach, Ph.d., Alan Skolnikoff, M.D., and Sherwood Waldron, Jr., M.D. all very highly respected and accomplished scientific researchers. The book is entitled, "Does Psychoanalysis Work?" It is a collection of research on this subject as well as a discussion about how further research can be conducted. As I said, I would truly love to say more, but can't right now.

Soon, I will be done and can be more thorough in my responses.

Lola

Wow, are you gonna be busy when you get a break----first with JL as a patient on your couch---then with Twyvels question and then mine.

Hurry back.

freud
Me on the couch? Sounds right. How much?

No I haven't Lola, but you DO have me quite
interested. I have never viewed Freud as so
much of the scientist - and perhaps along
with the rest of the world - labeled him a
quack, particularly for his obsession with our
instinctive natures being so base and low, so
to speak.
AND furthermore, I had no idea at all that
he put as much emphasis on the unconscious,
dreams, or free association. I am now
wondering about the whys and wherefores
of the splitting apart between Freud and Jung.
Also, thanks so much for the tip about the
Freudian biography - Peter Gay eh?
Oh dear, even his name sounds like a freudian
slip.
This IS indeed some of the most interesting
and intriguing information that I have heard
of in YEARS. I knew that a great deal of work
was going at universities all over the country
and elsewhere I'm sure as well - I remember
reading about it in post grad course booklets
at Univ of Fla where I spent a little time off
from pharmacy to study molecular genetics;
another field literally taking off and going to
change everything we thought we knew
about our world TOTALLY! Very exciting
conversation, I must endeavor to REMEMBER
to get back here. If you don't see me for a while,
please DO send me a PM reminding me to drag
my butt back in here. I do so want to keep up
with a subject I enjoy so much and has such
new & exciting things going on.

JLN,

Somewhere between $250. to $5.00 an hour, depending.

Lola

Do you give a SENIOR discount?

freud
I'll take the $5.00 treatment. What's it consist of?

Some candidates will see patients for as little as $5.00 per session. But I'm afraid, perception that it's the older candidates who are most likely to reduce their fees for a motivated patient. Most reduced fees range from $25.00 to $100. per 45 minute session. Full fee in New York for many is $250. So, you see, depending on the skill of the candidate, a good analysis is attainable for lower amounts of money. But this is a matter between the patient and the analyst. You guys aren't on my couch. No way. But I'll be glad to make a referral.

freud
Well, Lola, I have an increased confidence in your analytic skills. You can spot a lost cause when you see him.