New Technology Opening Old Doors To Theories of the Mind

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/magazine/02SLEEP.html

I have made a decision. I have some very important reports due by next Monday. So I've decided not to come back to a2k until they are done. I hate to be away. But I must. So look for me no later than next Monday or Tuesday at the latest. See you all then.

If I show up before my work is done, tell me to shut up and go away. Thanks

Kara

I finally finished that article----some very interesting case studies.
Since I don't have any sleep disorders or don't really anyone with one I can't really put it into perspective. The last one was really sad---this lady had fallen asleep while baby sitting and when the parents came home they discovered the baby had died in it's sleep-----every night the lady would sleep walk and attempt to atone for her failure.

Does anyone here have a sleep disorder or dreams they want to talk about?

Does anyone want to read more about how the brain operates?
I can provide some good links.

Lola and Kara, both articles were fascinating. Since I will be driving from Connecticut to Florida tomorrow, I won't be able to visit this thread for a couple of days.

Perception, I would be interested in more articles on the brain.

A thought I had about this research is the effect it has on erasing the stigma and suspicion surrounding mental illness and disability by making it understandable through scientific studyand research.

Dianne

Certainly agree that any attempt to lift the stigma of mental illness would benefit mankind. Just saw the movie, "A beautiful mind" the story of Nobel Prize winner John Nash. Current Knowledge would certainly have helped Professor Nash deal with his afliction.

I suspect that neuroscience will soon be able to prove that chemical imbalances in the brain cause disruptions in the way memory is established in many people thus causing a faulty knowledge base which in turn could cause faulty decisions. We are what we are because of OUR decisions so making good decisions is essential to a happy and productive life.

I'm preparing a short list of links giving a quick overview of how the brain works.

Here are three for starters----if anyone wants something more complex just let me know.

http://www.victoriawebpages.com/classes/genlpsy/davispalladino/ch02bdp.htm

http://sln.fi.edu/brain/nutrition/proteins/neurotransmitters.html

http://skepdic.com/memory.html

deleted

The second link above is only one page of the great information contained in the Franklin Institute site---search that page or go to this link

http://sln.fi.edu/brain/contents.html

Thanks perception, I'm so tempted to follow to those sites and read them, but I'm still working and making good progress on my work....I'll follow up when I'm done. Sorry for the interruption.

brain
Lola, get out of here until you've finished your project (as you requested).

*As this article discusses psychoanalysis as a valid
"science" - a title which was coveted but never achieved
in Freud's time, this leaves me wondering if Carl Jung's
work might have been equally as much "correct", as
Freud's, who was Jung's mentor. (Freud's work appears
to look at EVERYTHING in the psyche as being sexual in
nature, due to sexual trauma, or based on sexual
fantasies, dreams and desires, which I find to be the
most extreme and limiting factor of his work)
*The point at which Jung dissented from Freud and
began his own work, his was a much broader field
of study of the psyche. Jung allowed a place for the
"unknown", for archetypes, the term synchronicity,
the concept of a collective unconscious, in other words,
for the miraculous - the inexplicable, by man or science.
In so doing, he presented the world with a much more
level headed, sane and intelligent way of viewing the
individual psyche. It is also an interesting point that
Carl Jung was, in his way, also a part of the beginning
of Alcoholics Anonymous - via the help he gave to
Bill Wilson (one of the founders of the group)
I've always felt that Freud became obsessed with
sexuality because of his OWN issues, his own problems
with sexuality of a purely personal nature, and that
THIS was his own undoing.
*I find it very difficult indeed to point to a man such as
Freud, who was obviously obsessive-compulsive about
sex (not only in his theories but also in his private life)
and say - here is the great founder of the study of the
human mind. It would be more aptly said that here is a
man who limited himself by his own perceptions, based
more on himself more than on the actual condition of
his patients.

Oh dear, you are right JLNobody, I did ask you to tell me to get out until I was finished with my work. And I am being very disobedient....but this discussion is turning so very interesting. Thank you for your diligence in helping me as I asked.

Babs, you have painted a picture of Freud and his theories that is one held by so many. And, having studied Freud's writings, theories and evolutionary thinking over the years of his professional life, I believe that most people do not fully understand what Freud's theories were. I don't mean this to sound like I think you shouldn't have an opinion about Freud's theories. But I will tell you that I have studied his writings, including some of his earliest attempts to understand the mind from the perspective of the brain, extensively. And you are right. He did wish psychoanalysis to be a science. A wish he predicted would eventually come true. And I think we're seeing this happen now with this new technology and the state of the art of neurological research. Freud said that he believed eventually technology would present us with the ability to study the brain and when this happened, we would then discover which of his speculations were true or provable and which were not.

As far as Freud's preoccupation with sex, he wrote about sex and later aggression as basic instincts. An instinct that is expressed in the developing mind in all the ways that we experience as non sexual, such as a striving for mastery, and a desire to answer unanswerable questions, etc. We think in terms these days in terms of affects (feelings) and need rather than drive, but the concept is basically the same as drive. I think this is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Freud and his ideas out there. I know I felt the same way about his theories before I studied psychoanalysis, and especially before I studied contemporary psychoanalysis which is very much more evolved from Freud's original crude ideas. But Freud did get some very important, very basic things right. Such as the existence of the unconscious. About the importance of dreams, and about the value of the technique of free association to name only a few. He discovered the beginnings of many ideas that are today highly useful in modern psychoanalysis. When I have the time, I'll say more about this.

Many people think of Freud as a man who was arbitrary and unwilling to change. But he was just the opposite. He was clear about his ideas, and what they were. And his ideas offended many people. They upset many others. But he was one to always be looking for an inconsistency in his thinking. And when he found inconsistencies, he looked for new explanations to fit the observed incongruity. His methods are clearly not empirical science by today's standards, but by the standards of his time, he was considered to be an empirical scientist because he used the method of observation to form conjectures or hypotheses which were testable by further observation and a process of logic.

This is what is so exciting about the new brain research. With this new technology, concepts can be tested empirically by todays scientific standards. And we're on the brink of a new age in understanding how the mind (with is the same as brain) works.

So, it was time and very nice to take a break from my work and visit here. I'll be back, and I'll be reading until I can participate more fully.

BTW, Babs, you seem to know something about Freud's life. Have you read Peter Gay's biography of Freud's life? In my opinion, it is the best and most thorough exploration of Freud's life and who his life influenced his theories. It also is written in a very interesting and understandable, entertaining way. One can get a sense of what Freud's theories were without having to sift through volumes of difficult to read Freud. I recommend it highly to anyone interested in this subject.

freud
Lola, I agree with you that Freud was a great genius, but I want be a little negative and note the following. He did not "discover" the unconscious. He took it, and other notions, from Nietzsche (via Lou Solome) without giving him credit. Nietzsche got it from Dostoyevski, but DID give him credit. Freud's ID is pure energy, not (I think) synomous with sexual passion (so the puritans need not be offended) but the basis of sexual and all other drives. The need for mastery that you mention seems to reflect Nietzsche's "will to power" very clearly. Freud, however, was a system builder, unlike Nietzsche and Dostoyevski, and without his system-building ability we would not have benefitted as much from his antecedents' insights. He was also a magnificent writer, clear as a bell.
Now get back to work, damn it!

I'm in between sessions, and can't work on reports right now, so I'm free to respond to you JL. I agree with what you've written wholeheartedly. Freud like Nietzsche and Dostoyevski and, because of he was influenced by them, and along with them discovered a process of thinking that Nietzsche called a "will to power" and others called something else. But, as you say, it was Freud that put it together as a system that could be thought about, developed and could be used clinically. I'm not sure he didn't give credit to Dostoyevski, but he didn't I think give open credit to Nietzsche. I think he and Nietzsche had a bit of a falling out......or Freud felt rebuffed by Nietzsche, if I remember correctly. In any case, Freud did claim credit and in a way, he deserves it for his writing and development of the idea.

This is terrific will be listening in.

Since Freud, in attempting to create a science of psychoanalysis, dealt I believe almost entirely with the sub-conscious, I wonder if anyone would like to share their thoughts about the sub-conscious and it's role in shaping our conscious thoughts and memory. Since it appears that most learning and consolidation of actions, thoughts, and concepts developed during waking hours, actually take place during sleep, I am in a real quandry about the role (if any)played by the sub-conscious in determining what is remembered in the form of knowledge (what will be available the next day and in the near future) for building future concepts. I also think of the sub-conscious as monitoring the thinking process during waking hours and perhaps cateloging events for input during the shaping of the memory during subsequent sleep.

In other words, what is the mechanism that determines what will be remembered and what will not---it could possibly be accomplished in the hypothalamus which seems to play such a significant role in sifting and sorting of stimuli received from the sensory organs.

I would be grateful for any data on this. What is the sub-conscious and why do we have this ghostly state of mind?

psychoanalysis and the sub-conscious mind are what drive advertisers and media executives in today's world along
with political leaders that understand how shaping occurs in who we are, what we believe, and what our motivations are.

A very interesting question, perception.......and I wish, I wish, I wish I had the time to follow up on it right now. You have a way of asking those deep questions that motivate me, but that I have to find the time for.

And Husker, I agree. Marketing and the theory behind it is based on the assumption of an unconscious. It seems that because marketing works, it would be an indication that the assumption is accurate. It doesn't prove it, but it does suggest a correlation.

afore i venture a toe into this, here be dragons, unbounded horizon of an esoteric ocean, could someone please provide some kind of operational rather than nominal definitions of Freudian terms. Terms such as "sub-conscious" leave me in a bit of a quantary.

I'll go home and make an attempt at that Dys, as soon as I can.