New Technology Opening Old Doors To Theories of the Mind

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Technical advances in cognitive neuroscience (PET scans) are helping to clarify some of the fundamentals of psychoanalysis and to disprove or open new paths of exploration and discovery in others. Is there anyone interested in discussing the following article with me?

What Freud Got Right

Nov. 11 issue, "Sigmund Freud has been out of the scientific mainstream for so long, it's easy to forget that in the early-20th century he was regarded as a towering man of science, not, as he is remembered today, as the founder of the marginalized form of therapy known as psychoanalysis His theories, long discredited, are finding support from neurologists using modern brain imaging

By Fred Guterl
NEWSWEEK

AT THE START of his career, he wanted to invent a "science of the mind," but the Victorian tools he had were too blunt for the task. So he dropped the "science" part and had his patients lie on a couch, free-associating about childhood, dreams and fantasies.
This technique yielded the revolutionary notion that the human mind was a soap opera of concealed lust and aggression, of dark motives, self-deception and dreams rife with hidden meaning. The problem was, Freud had lots of anecdotes but almost no empirical data. With the invention of tools like the PET scan that can map the neurological activity inside a living brain, scientists discounted the windy speculations of psychoanalysis and dismissed Freud himself as the first media-savvy self-help guru.

But a funny thing happened to Freud on the way to becoming a trivia question: as researchers looked deeper into the physical structure of the brain, they began to find support for some of his theories. Now a small but influential group of researchers are using his insights as a guide to future research; they even have a journal, Neuropsychoanalysis, founded three years ago. "Freud's insights on the nature of consciousness are consonant with the most advanced contemporary neuroscience views," wrote Antonio Damasio, head of neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine. Note that Damasio did not refer to psychoanalysis or the Oedipus complex. Instead the work is going on at the fundamental level where emotions are born and primitive passions lurk in the shadows of dreams.

HOW THE MIND WORKS

for the entire article see: http://www.msnbc.com/news/829644.asp

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For years, the buzzword was "environment". Everything and anything that a person became, said the nurture gurus, came from your upbringing and social milieu. It was apostasy to even consider genetics as an explanation for human behavior.

Finally, science, with its armaments of sophisticated machinery, is beginning to understand the part that nature has in human development, personality, and susceptability to particular ailments, including mental illness. The interdependency of genetics and the environment is something that I have believed in, and argued about, for decades!

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Yes -and the discipline of infant mental health combined with the insights from neuroscience are exploring similar ground.

I will read your article fully, Lola - and be interested in debate - but I may not be conversant enough with either analysis or neurology to add a lot!

However, the whole area is absolutely fascinating.

Interestingly, where I live, psychiatrists, in terms of non pharmacological interventions, are still taught mainly psychoanalytic frameworks and seem not to be taught even to step outside this framework and critique it!

They speak as though these ideas are reality, not a series of theories.

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Hi Phoenix and dlowan,

I too have argued for many years that the brain and mind are different only in the fact that "mind" is a term we use for the purpose of denoting our experience of brain activity. Otherwise, there is no "boundry dividing brain and mind" as Freud thought of it early in his career. And I still marvel when I hear people argue about whether pathological mental conditions, such as depression, are only an imbalance in the brain. Of course depression is a dirivitive of brain chemistry. What else would it be? A disorder of the kidney? I do however distinguish between genetic brain disorders and brain chemistry (such as depression) influenced by environment. I agree with you Phoenix, a person's personality, dreams, mood, symptomatology, affect, etc. are all a combination of environment and genetics (sometimes referred to as constitutional factors.) It has always seemed obvious to me, and I'm glad to learn you've observed this as well.

dlowan, I'm amazed that psychoanalysis is still taught to medical residents in Australia. I wasn't aware of this. Interesting. But I agree, this has been one of the greatest mistakes of followers of Freud. Many of them, never all, but many have lived in a ivory tower and limited their own growth as well as pissing a lot of people off in the bargain. It has cost the profession greatly. In the U.S. this is rapidly changing, with horendous growing pains for American psychoanalysts and their professional organizations. But I'm very encouraged about the change because without it, psychoanalysis will not survive.

I think the article is referring, in particular to the fact that PET scan research is confirming the presence of the unconscious and it's role in human motivation for action (drives). Drive theory (technical term for Freud's theory) has come under fire even amoung psychoanalysts in the last few decades. This research is fascinating stuff and I've organized a group of psychoanalysts in my institute to study the latest collaborative research of cognitive neuroscientists and and psychoanalysts research.

You don't have to understand that much about psychoanalysis, neuroscience or research to join in on this discussion. I hope anyone will feel free to join in, regardless of their field of expertise, if they find it interesting.

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Lola et al,

I will mostly listen, as I am not up on current thinking about psychoanalysis vs psychopharmacology, although I have read lots of interesting stuff on the subject. When I studied psychology, there were no medications in use except for treating psychosis, and the ones used for depression were largely ineffective. It has been fascinating to see the changes in thinking and to watch the pendulum swing from talk therapy to drug therapy then slip back toward the center.

I have seen also a complete turn-around in nature vs. nurture theories, since I was at university. Then, it was all about nurture; and to talk about "nature" and genetics made one appear a fool. Genetics gave you eye color, but not much else.

I like the idea that talk-therapy can change the wiring in your brain and that you should combine talk with medication to achieve the best result. I'd like to know more about these ideas.

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Kara- I am in complete agreement with you. I think that the nature-nurture camps are finally realizing that human beings are a complex interaction of both forces. Hurrah!

I believe that emotional problems, as well as mental illness, has dual components- the chemical, and the psychological, for want of a better word.

Let us say, for argument's sake, that a child is born with a serious physical deformity. The kids make fun of him, people stare at him on the street, even his parents relate to him in a dysfunctional way on account of guilt. The child becomes introverted, and depressed. The depression causes chemical changes in his brain chemistry. It is a vicious cycle. He is anxious about going out in public. He does poorly in school, because he is concerned about how he appears to his peers.

All of a sudden there is a new procedure. The kid has the operation, and he is gorgeous. Do you think that all those years of relating in a dysfunctional way with the world will cease, the depression will lift, and the child will become a social butterfly? Of course not. The child has to relearn how to relate to his peers, and develop a healthier self image.

The example that I gave is rather obvious, but I think that you will get my point!

Lola- I just read your post, and I see we have similar thoughts on the subject!

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My education in these matters is somewhere in the range of High Idiot. Fortunately, lack of knowledge doesn't prevent me from weighing in on most any topic.

I might make the general observation that debates such as nurture/nature commonly and quite predictably generate rather unmoving advocates on either side. It appears that this might be merely a consequence of the propensity in many of us to seek a simple magic bullet answer.

Also, the notion suggested in the original article quoted here by Lola that our brains aren't organs designed in the 1800s, but rather which retain structural elements (and function) from early evolutionary periods, seems likely to be the case.

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Hi good people----I became a fighter pilot in the USAF not knowing that I should have been a neurobiologist. I am keenly interested in the micro-structure of the brain and believe that most new axioms of the mind will be the result of a better understanding of how the brain functions
I want you to know that Ethel was highly respected on another forum and I was deeply disturbed that she did not contribute often, not knowing that she was too busy here. I'm glad she invited me to participate in this forum.
I believe that most of us spend a high percentage of our lifetime as automatons because we are not aware that we can take control of our lives.

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Now here's an interesting discussion! I was gunna be a shrink one day long ago but gave it up.

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I SO want to read the new book called "The Blank Slate." I read "The Scientist in the Crib" by Alison Gopnik et al when the sozlet was very small, and that combined with what I was observing on a daily basis really convinced me that there is a heck of a lot of nature in the nature/ nurture equation.

This kid's been HERSELF since day one. Shortly after she was born, the nurses were amazed that she was tracking us as we moved around, which she wasn't supposed to be able to do; "alert", "curious", and "social" have been words that have been consistently applied to her all the way through, by many independent parties.

As others have said, I really think there's an interplay; genetic predisposition that is given free reign or not depending on the environment, and environmental factors that are more or less influential depending on genetic predisposition.

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sozobe
when I delivered my own son he came out with his eyes open in what would be a seemingly - "I'm checking things out attitude" Still remember it very clearly.

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sozobe
When a child is born they have a complete set of neurons(something like 100 billion) but the connectivity has just begun and will be mostly complete by age 3. This child you were referring to that was following the movements of the nurses was "connecting" at lightning speed but this alertness at such an early age is rare. It could be a sign of high intellect which could develope a very high IQ. I wasn't able to determine who or where this child was from your narrative. Could you go on to explain.

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I think sozobe is talking about herself

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Husker
It isn't often that someone starts out in the 1st person then switches to the 3rd person as though talking about someone else.

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Well, I thought Sozobe was talking about her daughter. Were you, Sozobe? She must be a very smart girl.

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Let's revive this old thread. I'm looking for more discussion.

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Hi Lola

I'm back on board and thanks for re-inviting me. I have left politics behind and will make every effort to leave my rather aggressive posting outside also.

Lola, Fresco recently brought up a new discovery near and dear to my heart-----they have discovered a new neurochemical produced by the hypothalamus. It's called orexin and it appears to control sleep and the reduction of the amount of this chemical leads to narcolepsy. But to get to one of your points, this discovery was made possible by use of one of several imaging systems used now in "watching" the activities in the brain. As you may remember I am a reductionist big time when it comes to activities of the brain---I hope we will have many new contributors to this thread and maybe Fresco will grace us with his presence

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Hi Lola,

Happy to see the restart. I was lying in lurk and listening, before.

There was an interesting article on the brain and the mind, in yesterday's NYTimes magazine, focusing on sleep disorders, some of them bizarre.

A lack of dopamine seems to be a contributor to one particular affliction.

If anyone missed it, and is interested, I'll do a link.

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Kara- I would appreciate a link to the article. Thanks!

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Yes, Kara, post the link.

And Perception, I'll invite Fresco and see if he responds.

Welcome all.

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New Technology Opening Old Doors To Theories of the Mind

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