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Proof of Jesus' Resurrection

 
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 09:24 am
Just an observation, but why would the Romans have recorded anything at all about the execution of a criminal in the back-water province of Judea? Up until a few years ago, scholars and experts refuted the existance of Pontius Pilate because no Roman record of his rule in Judea existed. If they didn't bother to record for history the man they placed in authority there, why would you expect them to be concerned with recording anything at all about an execution that for all they knew was no different than any other?

Just a thought.
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EpiNirvana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 09:42 am
hmmmm....fair enough
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:00 am
timberlandko wrote:
rl, no dancing going on over here, regardless whats going on where you stand. My position on this issue is that of the overwhelming consensus of legitimate, objective scholars and researchers active in the field addressing the issue at discussion. A few desperately wishful Chtistian apologists, most without substantive pertinent credentials, hold the contrarian view you endorse. By overwhelming consensus, the communities of legitimate, objective scholars and researchers hold that no evidence exists to support the proposition you forward, while considerable existant evidence directly contraindicates the proposition you endorse.
What? Timber resorting to argumentum ad numerum? Say it isn't so.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:03 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Just an observation, but why would the Romans have recorded anything at all about the execution of a criminal in the back-water province of Judea? Up until a few years ago, scholars and experts refuted the existance of Pontius Pilate because no Roman record of his rule in Judea existed. If they didn't bother to record for history the man they placed in authority there, why would you expect them to be concerned with recording anything at all about an execution that for all they knew was no different than any other?

Just a thought.


Tacitus (Publius Cornelius Tacitus, or Giaus Cornelius Tacitus--either name is correct, and the explanation is not worth the candle--was a Roman historian who live approximately from 56 to 117 CE) records Pontius Pilate as the procurator of Palestine in the relevant period. Therefore, your contention that no Roman record of the rule of Pontius Pilate existed is false--and probably a result of a christian source which was either ignorant of, or willfully ignoring the entry in Tacitus. In fact, Tacitus was slightly incorrect in referring to Pontius Pilate as procurator, as there was a king in Judea in his (Pilate's) time, which means that technically Pilate was a prefect. This error on the part of Tacitus is understandable, though, as the reign of Agrippa in Judea ended before Tacitus took up his post governor of Asia (western Anatolia, you would think of it as western Turkey), and in the time that Tacitus was in public service, the Roman officer who governed Palestine was a procurator.

There is further significane in you perpetuating this false claim. Tacitus is used as a source for the historical existence of the putative Jesus. However, scholars (those who don't have a christian agenda to "prove" that Jesus existed) are universal in asserting that the passage in the Annals which is asserted to prove this is certainly an interpolation. Not only is it asserted to be an interpolation, but it is grammatically wrong, and awkward, in classical Latin. If the interpolation is removed, the passage not only remains coherent, it becomes grammatically correct, and is no longer awkward. Furthermore, Tacitus' position as governor of Asia is even more embarrassing to christians who attempt to use his works as evidence for the historical Jesus in that the Histories is the book in which it is alleged that he mentions "christians." But the term christian was not used at Rome, where he wrote that history, and it does not appear anywhere, even in chruch histories, until about the time that he was governor of Asia. Yet, when he wrote the Annals, he never mentions christians, nor the putative Jesus--even though it covers the period before the Histories and the period in which the putative Jesus would have lived, if he did indeed live. The claim that Tacitus mentions Jesus (only interentially, even christians eager to "prove" that Jesus lived and was mentioned in contemporary histories do not assert that Tacitus mentioned him by name) and christians in a passage of a book he wrote before he could possibly have heard the term christian, and the evidence that he does not mention the putative Jesus and christians in a book he wrote after he was in a position to have heard of christians is further inferential evidence that the claim is false.

Furthermore, when Caesarea Palaestina was excavated in the late 1950s, an dedicatory inscription to Pilate was found in the ruins of the ampitheater. That hardly coincides with your contention that "up until a few years ago" scholars refuted the existence of Pilate--fifty years is a hell of lot longer ago than "a few years," and the mention of Pilate by Tacitus has been known for almost two thousand years.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:22 am
Pilate also bears mention in the writings of Josephus and Eusebius. Nevertheless, I continue to believe that little regard was paid to Pilate's authenticity until discovery of the aforementioned inscription in Ceasarea, the discovery of which is only "a few years" ago by my standards, being well within my lifetime.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:26 am
Answers-dot-com wrote:
few (fyū) adj., few·er, few·est.

1. Amounting to or consisting of a small number: one of my few bad habits.
2. Being more than one but indefinitely small in number: bowled a few strings.

n. (used with a pl. verb)

1. An indefinitely small number of persons or things: A few of the books have torn jackets.
2. An exclusive or limited number: the discerning few; the fortunate few.

pron. (used with a pl. verb)

A small number of persons or things: "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).


What you are willing to "believe" is not germane, the more so as you can reasonably be asserted to have a christian agenda. Even in the life of a single human, fifty years is more than a few.

Settle down, old timer.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:28 am
Young whippersnapper!
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:30 am
Hey Set. I will gracefully accept the facts as you have proffered them concerning any Roman references to Pilate. As far as the tablets being discovered more than my "few" years ago, I can only make the excuse of haste and not wanting to look up exactly when they were discovered. Of course, then again, maybe it only seems a few years ago to me. Who knows.

But I would still stand behind my contention that you would not expect the Romans to record anything about a simple execution in a back-water province. Of course, others here may think otherwise, but seems to me the absence of a report does not preclude something from being historically possible, thus using the absence of any Roman record of Christ's crucifixion as proof it did not happen or could not have happened is silly.

And thanks for your post and setting this poor mind straight. Always good to get my facts straight.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 10:37 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Hey Set. I will gracefully accept the facts as you have proffered them concerning any Roman references to Pilate. As far as the tablets being discovered more than my "few" years ago, I can only make the excuse of haste and not wanting to look up exactly when they were discovered. Of course, then again, maybe it only seems a few years ago to me. Who knows.

But I would still stand behind my contention that you would not expect the Romans to record anything about a simple execution in a back-water province. Of course, others here may think otherwise, but seems to me the absense of a report does not preclude something from being historically possible, thus using the absense of any Roman record of Christ's crucifixion as proof it did not happen or could not have happened is silly.

And thanks for your post and setting this poor mind straight. Always good to get my facts straight.


In fact, CR, your contention about recording the execution of a criminal is well-taken, and i was not taking issue with that. However, that does not serve the contentions of christians with regard to the disputed passage in Tacitus. The term christian was unknown at the time of the great fire in Rome, which is the subject of the passage which is now disputed by scholars as an interpolation. It was not used anywhere at that time, not simply in Rome. So one would have to ask how Tacitus could have come up with the term christian in writing a history about the period. It is not unreasonable to assert that he used the term anachronistically, just as he anachronistically referred to Pilate as a procurator. However, given that it was unlikely that any official notice was taken of the execution of a putative criminal in Palestine, one would be compelled to ask why any notice would have been taken of any particular Jewish cult if the execution of the cult founder passed unnoticed.

One of the problems with "christian scholarship" in such matters is that they like to have things both ways. They are willing to claim that Tacitus mentioned the christians in a book he wrote in 100 CE, at a time when the term christian was unknown outside a small area of Palestine and Syria, but then claim that no attention was paid to Tacitus' mention of Pilate by subsequent scholars. It reveals an agenda to find some things significant, and to take no notice of other things.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 11:13 am
neologist wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
rl, no dancing going on over here, regardless whats going on where you stand. My position on this issue is that of the overwhelming consensus of legitimate, objective scholars and researchers active in the field addressing the issue at discussion. A few desperately wishful Chtistian apologists, most without substantive pertinent credentials, hold the contrarian view you endorse. By overwhelming consensus, the communities of legitimate, objective scholars and researchers hold that no evidence exists to support the proposition you forward, while considerable existant evidence directly contraindicates the proposition you endorse.
What? Timber resorting to argumentum ad numerum? Say it isn't so.

Not necessarilly argumentum ad numerum, Neo - a bit more involved than that; more along the lines of preponderance of evidence, reasonable doubt, and logical deduction.


Oh - and Flashback: timber on Tacitus, Josephus, Christian Historiography, and more.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 11:30 am
In that the Big Bird refers to expert opinion, his fallacy might more accurately be referred to as argumentum ad populum than merely argumentum ad numerum, in that he appeals to the opinions of an elite.

Just tryin' to help out here, Big Bird.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 11:37 am
Just paying attention to his word preponderance, as if the majority of any group ever had a firm hold on reason.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 11:40 am
Yer both poopity heads. :wink: Laughing

Actually, the argument form I employed would be argumentum ad verecundiam, argument from authority, and, in that the referrenced authority constitutes the opinion of recognized, accreditted, practicing experts in the field, and is consensus opinion thereof not subject to broad, or even significant dispute or disagreement among said qualified opinionators, the argument is legitimate forensically, academically, and legally, not fallacious.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 11:42 am
And, of course, we all know the derivation of the word 'expert':

Ex=has been
Spert= Drip under pressure. Smile
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chiso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 07:40 pm
But amazingly today is June 7, 2006, Ano Domini.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 07:50 pm
More consistent with contemporary formal practice and accepted journalistic and academic style would be CE - C(urrent), or alternately C(ommon), E(ra) or alternately E(poch); language evolves, too.

cf: BCE - B(efore) C(urrent), or alternately C(ommon), E(ra) or alternately E(poch)
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chiso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 08:56 pm
Neutral What ever you choose to call it is up to you; I'm not going to do the research for you. Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 09:13 pm
It would appear someone's research could do with a bit of updating.
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chiso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 09:23 pm
Neutral What constitutes the division from BCE to CE?
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 09:35 pm
Jesus is/was a wanker.

Just thought i'd add to the tone.......


Whaaaat Drunk
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