What does the upside down star(pentagram) mean to you?

Given the history of war fought in the name of religion, I doubt the claim can be proven. Adding your example of Buddhists into the number of practioning religionists who are less violent and/or warlike would certainly add additional weight to the possible claim. Did someone make this claim?

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Setanta wrote:

Fortunately, we live in societies of laws, and are therefore not dependant up what any particular crackpot thinks is right for him.

This is, without a doubt, the funniest thing that I have read all day. The poster suggests that the law will look after the deed after it is committed. Some may think that it would be better for people to be of the right fibre to not do the deed in the first place and thus safe the taxpayer the expense of the arrest, trial and all that goes with it.

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Chumly wrote:

J_B wrote:
They are equivalent within a given faith practice. I never claimed they are equivalent between faith practices.
Nope that is not what you said at all. You said
J_B wrote:
Chumly, of course Mayans were raised with an equivalent set of moral values.
. To now claim you meant they are equivalent within a given faith is not only patently false as it would impute that all people of the same faith maintain the same set of moralities but is clearly not what you wrote and you are simply trying to backpedal on your specious claim that Mayans were raised with an equivalent set of moral values to other religion.

Nope, you didn't go back far enough. I said,

J_B wrote:

Intrepid, I agree with you in many ways, but I think the beginning of your paragraph contradicts the ending of it. By equating a Christian upbringing to an honest religious one, you do a disservice to all other religions. I do think children raised within a faith tradition have a greater exposure to an equivalent set of morals, but I don't think Christianity has a lock on promoting morals and values.

As a new parent I searched out a faith tradition for my children for that very reason. We ended up UUs, which is more heavily entrenched in promoting morals and values than any other faith I found. It's exactly why we chose it.

You're the one who starting going on about faith practices of Mayans being morally equivalent to Buddhists. No back-peddling here, I clearly said within.

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J_B wrote:

Given the history of war fought in the name of religion, I doubt the claim can be proven. Adding your example of Buddhists into the number of practioning religionists who are less violent and/or warlike would certainly add additional weight to the possible claim. Did someone make this claim?

As regards Buddhists, i suggest you look up "Oda Nobunaga+Ikko Ikki sect" as well as "the Amida Tong." Buddhists even sometimes brag that their monks make superb warriors because of their mental focus.

You might also look up the Sohei.

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Intrepid wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Fortunately, we live in societies of laws, and are therefore not dependant up what any particular crackpot thinks is right for him.

This is, without a doubt, the funniest thing that I have read all day. The poster suggests that the law will look after the deed after it is committed. Some may think that it would be better for people to be of the right fibre to not do the deed in the first place and thus safe the taxpayer the expense of the arrest, trial and all that goes with it.

The application of the law is also in the deterrent effect--people know they run a risk if they go around violating the law. The suggestion that religion deters people from crime might well qualify as the funniest thing anyone has posted all day--were it not for the tragedies, such a burning witches and killing heretics, which are concommitant with religious fervor.

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I don't doubt it historically, Set. The three I mentioned in my post are the only ones I know of that historically have held pacifist philosophies; there might be more, I honestly don't know. I still don't know who made the claim that religionists were less likely to be violent or warlike.

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I don't believe that anyone made such a claim. Rather, i believe Chumly asked if anyone were willing to assert that a religiously-based education could be expected to produce people who were not violent or war-like.

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J_B wrote:

Given the history of war fought in the name of religion, I doubt the claim can be proven. Adding your example of Buddhists into the number of practioning religionists who are less violent and/or warlike would certainly add additional weight to the possible claim. Did someone make this claim?

There have been posters (you included) who have said (in essence) that children raised within a faith tradition have a greater exposure to morals than those children raised without a faith tradition, thus the logical demonstrable moral extension of that would be children raised within a faith tradition would be less violent and/or warlike.

If you cannot demonstrate that religiosity provides a higher level of moral teaching, then using the words religion and morality together is realistically incongruent.

Your assertion that Buddhists add weight is incorrect unless you can show that Buddhists are less violent and/or warlike because of religiosity per se, and not because of moral teachings per se. Why? Because a belief in the supernatural is irrelative to the requirements for moral teachings unless you can show otherwise.

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Buddhists are out of the discussion--they have not only been violent and warlike, but many Buddhists admit that there beliefs do not preclude war or violence.

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Setanta wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Fortunately, we live in societies of laws, and are therefore not dependant up what any particular crackpot thinks is right for him.

This is, without a doubt, the funniest thing that I have read all day. The poster suggests that the law will look after the deed after it is committed. Some may think that it would be better for people to be of the right fibre to not do the deed in the first place and thus safe the taxpayer the expense of the arrest, trial and all that goes with it.

The application of the law is also in the deterrent effect--people know they run a risk if they go around violating the law. The suggestion that religion deters people from crime might well qualify as the funniest thing anyone has posted all day--were it not for the tragedies, such a burning witches and killing heretics, which are concommitant with religious fervor.

I was not suggesting that religion was the defining factor. I was suggesting that morality is.

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Chumly wrote:

There have been posters (you included) who have said (in essence) that children raised within a faith tradition have a greater exposure to morals than those children raised without a faith tradition, thus the logical demonstrable moral extension of that would be children raised within a faith tradition would be less violent and/or warlike.

Wrong again, Chumly. I never said they have a greater exposure to morals than those raised without a faith tradition. Nor did I have say that only those raised within a faith tradition end up as responsible, caring adults. In fact, if you read what I actually said, you will see that I said the exact opposite. I don't at all make the moral extension that children raised within a faith tradition would be less violent and/or warlike. Unless, that is, they were all raised UU, Menonite, or Quaker.

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J_B wrote:

Chumly wrote:
J_B wrote:
They are equivalent within a given faith practice. I never claimed they are equivalent between faith practices.
Nope that is not what you said at all. You said
J_B wrote:
Chumly, of course Mayans were raised with an equivalent set of moral values.
. To now claim you meant they are equivalent within a given faith is not only patently false as it would impute that all people of the same faith maintain the same set of moralities but is clearly not what you wrote and you are simply trying to backpedal on your specious claim that Mayans were raised with an equivalent set of moral values to other religion.

Nope, you didn't go back far enough. I said,

J_B wrote:

Intrepid, I agree with you in many ways, but I think the beginning of your paragraph contradicts the ending of it. By equating a Christian upbringing to an honest religious one, you do a disservice to all other religions. I do think children raised within a faith tradition have a greater exposure to an equivalent set of morals, but I don't think Christianity has a lock on promoting morals and values.

As a new parent I searched out a faith tradition for my children for that very reason. We ended up UUs, which is more heavily entrenched in promoting morals and values than any other faith I found. It's exactly why we chose it.

You're the one who starting going on about faith practices of Mayans being morally equivalent to Buddhists. No back-peddling here, I clearly said within.

You may have thought you were continuing on in context from a post you had addressed to intrepid quite a few pages ago; but you can't expect me to know that.

Nor did not tell me this until now. Thus I reasonably took your words at face value in the context of my post that you responded to. Further your quote in question was ill-defined until much later when you, without notice or consideration, re-defined it.

Thus my posts in question were rational and logical while yours were incongruent and ill-defined and out of context.

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whoa-k, fine. If you think your rant about Mayans which occured on the same page and a full four posts after my 'within' post was rational and logical but not connected to my incongruent, ill-defined, and out-of-context posts, then I'm cool with that. Have a nice one, Chumly.

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J_B wrote:

Wrong again, Chumly. I never said they have a greater exposure to morals than those raised without a faith tradition.

Nope it's clear what you said, it is in context and overt.

J_B wrote:

I do think children raised within a faith tradition have a greater exposure to an equivalent set of morals

And don't go telling me that your references to the word "equivalent" goes back to your old response to an old intrepid post of which I have already covered as being out of context and incongruent.

J_B wrote:

I don't at all make the moral extension that children raised within a faith tradition would be less violent and/or warlike. Unless, that is, they were all raised UU, Menonite, or Quaker.

Go ahead make your case that children raised as UU, Menonite, or Quaker are less violent and/or warlike than children not raised as UU, Menonite, or Quaker, and most to the point do so evoking the supernatural, as the moral causation and not the moral teachings per se, which can of course be implemented independently of anything supernatural.

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J_B wrote:

whoa-k, fine. If you think your rant about Mayans which occured on the same page and a full four posts after my 'within' post was rational and logical but not connected to my incongruent, ill-defined, and out-of-context posts, then I'm cool with that. Have a nice one, Chumly.

It was certainly not a rant, it was quite factual and easily documented. As to your below quote, in order for there to a "greater" there must be a lesser, that's a given.

Chumly wrote:

J_B wrote:
I do think children raised within a faith tradition have a greater exposure to an equivalent set of morals.......

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This thread seems to be taking a decidedly sinister twist. Does evil live in you, Chumly? Laughing

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Only the Shadow knows!
Do you know the joke "who's on first" by Bud Abbott and Lou Costello?
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml
That's how it's been going with J_B & me.
Pretty funny when you read it back (if you can endure it).

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Chumly wrote:

Only the Shadow knows!
Do you know the joke "who's on first" by Bud Abbott and Lou Costello?
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml
That's how it's been going with J_B & me.
Pretty funny when you read it back (if you can endure it).

Yeah, I know it. It seems to me that J_B is hitting them out of the park while you are still on deck. :-)

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"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions. He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

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Which proves what? Since it is reported that 80% of the world population has a belief system, it is no wonder these numbers are as they are. You are only comparing to 20%.

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What does the upside down star(pentagram) mean to you?

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