What does the upside down star(pentagram) mean to you?

Chumly wrote:

Well this is straight from the UU's site so it's very clear indeed that there is congruence to belief in supernatural powers within the UU, irrelative of how you individually wish to interpret it.

That point seems a bit disingenious on your part. As their website says quite clearly, some Unitarians believe in god, some don't. I am not familiar with Unitarianism, but their website says quite clearly that some Unitarians believe in god. It is entirely plausible that those who don't believe in god don't worship and aren't interested in their children's views about him -- and that those who do devote some pages to it on their homepage. Is there an actual point you are trying to make, or are you just trying to pick a fight?

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Setanta wrote:

Why should i? The god of the old testament is a despicable wretch, and it is not only my right to express that opinion, but, given that i hold it, i consider it incumbent upon me to express it as often as possible. If that's a problem for you, then you have a problem--but i don't.

No, you got NO problems, that's obvious.

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Yes, it is obvious. It's good to see that you get some things right.

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Thomas wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Well this is straight from the UU's site so it's very clear indeed that there is congruence to belief in supernatural powers within the UU, irrelative of how you individually wish to interpret it.
That point seems a bit disingenious on your part. As their website says quite clearly, some Unitarians believe in god, some don't. I am not familiar with Unitarianism, but their website says quite clearly that some Unitarians believe in god. It is entirely plausible that those who don't believe in god don't worship and aren't interested in their children's views about him -- and that those who do devote some pages to it on their homepage. Is there an actual point you are trying to make, or are you just trying to pick a fight?

Here was my original request:

Quote:

OK please name a recognized identifiable religion which has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way. I am not saying three is no such thing but I am saying I am not aware of any.

Here is J_B's repsonse:

Quote:

I've been describing one all along. UU does not espouse any particular belief system.

It's plain that irrelative of some "Unitarians believe in god, some don't", it would incorrect to say that UU "has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way". Further there is no "disingenious" on my part nor am I "trying to pick a fight", simply responding to an ongoing dialogue with J_B about how UU fits into the moral / religious fabric of modern religions.

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Thomas wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Well this is straight from the UU's site so it's very clear indeed that there is congruence to belief in supernatural powers within the UU, irrelative of how you individually wish to interpret it.
That point seems a bit disingenious on your part. As their website says quite clearly, some Unitarians believe in god, some don't. I am not familiar with Unitarianism, but their website says quite clearly that some Unitarians believe in god. It is entirely plausible that those who don't believe in god don't worship and aren't interested in their children's views about him -- and that those who do devote some pages to it on their homepage. Is there an actual point you are trying to make, or are you just trying to pick a fight?

Here was my original request:

Quote:

OK please name a recognized identifiable religion which has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way. I am not saying three is no such thing but I am saying I am not aware of any.

Here is J_B's repsonse:

Quote:

I've been describing one all along. UU does not espouse any particular belief system.

It's plain that irrelative of the fact that some "Unitarians believe in god, some don't", it would incorrect to say that UU "has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way". Further there is no "disingenious"(ness) on my part nor am I "trying to pick a fight", simply responding to an ongoing dialogue with J_B about how UU fits into the moral / religious fabric of modern religions, some parts of which appear to be congruent, other parts of which appear to be incongruent.

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Chumly wrote:

It's plain that irrelative of the fact that some "Unitarians believe in god, some don't", it would incorrect to say that UU "has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way".

It may be plain to you, but it's not plain to me -- possibly because it's not true. Some physicists believe in god, some don't, and still it's true that physics has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way. You can reach the same conclusions about reality whether you're an theist or an atheist physicist. Likewise, you can reach the same conclusions about morality whether you're a theistic unitarian or an atheist unitarian. Accordingly, it seems like a fair statement to me that unitarianism has no congruence with any belief in a supernatural power.

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Intrepid wrote:

The upside down pentagram represents Satan. It is the same as denouncing God. To wear it is to attract evil around you. It will not bring good spirits around you. Normally it is only worn by Satanists or devil worshippers.

Can you show me a bible passage where Satan is credited with evil of the magnitude commanded by God in Numbers 31: ?

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Chumly, some estimate that approx 20% of all UUs believe in a supernatural force. They aren't encouraged toward that belief or discouraged away from it. The other 80% are made up of atheists, agnostics, and primarily people who simply don't give it any thought at all. Simply because the UUA and UU Congregations welcome those with a certain belief system doesn't mean it has any congruence with that, or any other, belief system. The web site is intended to answer questions from visiters trying to see if they would fit in and to provide resources for those looking for info on a particular path or faith.

If by lack of congruence you meant a religion that forces and enforces a "disbelief" in a supernatural force then I don't know of one, but to me congruence with an ideology would mean to be in agreement with one and to expect all participants to be in harmony with a given practice. I answered accordingly.

Well said, Thomas, thank you.

My apologies to those of you who are trying to keep this topic on point. I will refrain from additional comments that are not related to the subject.

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mesquite wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
The upside down pentagram represents Satan. It is the same as denouncing God. To wear it is to attract evil around you. It will not bring good spirits around you. Normally it is only worn by Satanists or devil worshippers.

Can you show me a bible passage where Satan is credited with evil of the magnitude commanded by God in Numbers 31: ?

What is it with you guys? Is there some argument about who Satan is supposed to be? Do you have some other definition for Satan besides the angel cast out by god, whose power is in darkness and evil? and that's if you accept the traditional descriptions of him. If you don't, what is the contention? that God is the evil one, and satan just misunderstood? Or is it just picking fights for the pure joy of it?

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In that regard, here is my take on the point-down pentagram.

Quote:

A "point down" pentacle is nothing new- nor is it necessarily Satanic when it appears as such. Historical depictions of the pentagram were as likely to be points down as point up- a distinction between one or the other was rarely made by the ancients. Even today, one must not assume a point down pentagram is Satanic, as it is just likely to be Masonic, Wiccan, or simply upside-down. Some inexperienced Wiccans will occasionally claim that a point down pentacle is Satanic, but such a symbol has at times represented the Wiccan horned God, and is still today an emblem of the Second Degree initiation in Gardnerian Wicca.

source

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From the same source as above....

The Satanic Pentagram

In the minds of many , the pentagram is inextricably linked with black magick and Satan worship. The Satanic pentagram is a difficult symbol- it is the newest and least used, but at the same time the best known and most controversial. The Satanic pentacle is almost always presented upside down, or inverted, with a single point facing downward, and it is this pentacle that is presented incorrectly as 'evil.'

The adoption of the pentacle as a Satanic emblem is quite recent, dating only to the latter half of the twentieth century. To the Satanist, this glyph is a representation of "Black magic," symbolizing the triumph of matter and individual desires over religious dogma- earth over an illusory promise of heaven. It is not analogous to the upturned cross (which is a symbol of rebellion against Christian culture), and is not "anti-Wiccan."

In modern Satanic theology, the pentagram is far more likely to represent the individual, or the choice to pursue individual glory or immortality rather than union or absorption with the divine- where some traditions advocate the sublimation of the ego or submission to god, Satanism exalts and glorifies it, deifying the human being. The symbol most commonly associated with Satanic practices is the "Sabbatic goat" or Goat of Mendes pentacle, often confused with Baphomet, a figure from Templar legend, and Pan, the Greek goat God. It rarely has any deeper meaning; an irony when one considers that its association with Satanism has made the pentagram a feared symbol to many, and the subject of countless conspiracy theories.

<bold print mine>

I didn't know about the many different interpretations of the five-pointed star, although the deification of self is something I had heard about Satanism before.

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Thomas wrote:

It may be plain to you, but it's not plain to me -- possibly because it's not true.

OK, let's have a look see:
a) Given UU embraces those that believe in supernatural powers (as shown prior).
b) Given there are UU practitioners who believe in supernatural powers (as shown prior).
c) It logically follows that UU has a greater than zero congruence for some belief in some supernatural powers in some way.

Thomas wrote:

Some physicists believe in god, some don't, and still it's true that physics has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way.

To compare your counter to the discipline of science per se doesn't jibe because the discipline of science per se (irrelative of its practitioner's personnel religious beliefs or lack thereof) dictates the usage of the scientific method, and hence the rejection of the supernatural. UU neither utilizes the scientific method, nor rejects the supernatural.

Thomas wrote:

You can reach the same conclusions about reality whether you're an theist or an atheist physicist. Likewise, you can reach the same conclusions about morality whether you're a theistic unitarian or an atheist unitarian.

Sorry, I am not sure what "conclusions" you are alluding to.

Thomas wrote:

Accordingly, it seems like a fair statement to me that unitarianism has no congruence with any belief in a supernatural power.

I'll provide a definition of congruence and we'll see how things go from here, but so far I do not see how my assertion that "It's plain that irrelative of the fact that some "Unitarians believe in god, some don't", it would incorrect to say that UU "has zero congruence to any belief in any supernatural powers in any way" is untrue.

Congruence
Agreement, harmony, conformity, or correspondence.

IOW congruence can simply mean that it is in harmony, and to the obvious extent that UU embraces those that believe in supernatural powers (as shown prior) and does not reject them (as shown prior) I have demonstrated my case.

Point of interest as to J_B's definition of religion and my response:

J_B wrote:

Religion can be defined as a collection of like-minded individuals who find support and strength in each other's company.

Chumly wrote:

I must disagree because if that is your definition of religion, then dog breeders getting together at dog shows are religious events. As would my buddies and I in my rock band be considered a religious group.

To keep it all together I'll also provide a definition of religion:

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

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Just what are the supposed ramifications of decorating oneself with a Satanic Pentagram and attracting these evil spirits though? What do people believe are the genuine consequences, physical harm in some way? Emotional, mental harm? Bad luck? Or is it just plain bad, no reason we can debate or measure, just a solid and concrete no-no? I just don't get it. How can a symbol truly have more meaning in it than that which the user/wearer gives it? Maybe it's simply seen as a wrong choice, displays a character flaw, a demonstration of intent that doesn't sit well? The wearer and therefore their intentions or beliefs being key rather than the symbol itself.

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Intrepid wrote:

Pauligirl wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
It holds a deep symbolic meaning to me. It represents personal power, growth, intellect, independence, and freedom. It represents being mastered by none but the self.
I have it inked on my body to remind me of what and who I am...

Why do you need a silly symbol to remind you of what and who you are? Don't you know?

I wonder how many Christians own or wear a cross?
P

I really don't know. I don't. Also, I suppose you don't see any difference between a tattoo and a trinket since you equate the two in the same vein.

I only equate the two in your terms of "silly symbol". Dok having his symbol tattooed is no different or sillier that people wearing crosses. Or having them tattooed.

http://www.religioustattoos.net/Images/Sacred_Heart/sacred_heart_43.jpg

P

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snood wrote:

To the Satanist, this glyph is a representation of "Black magic," symbolizing the triumph of matter and individual desires over religious dogma- earth over an illusory promise of heaven. It is not analogous to the upturned cross (which is a symbol of rebellion against Christian culture), and is not "anti-Wiccan."

In modern Satanic theology, the pentagram is far more likely to represent the individual, or the choice to pursue individual glory or immortality rather than union or absorption with the divine- where some traditions advocate the sublimation of the ego or submission to god, Satanism exalts and glorifies it, deifying the human being

Wow. Someones been doing their research.
I'm proud of you snood Smile

Anyhow, this information is the real mccoy. Right on the money.

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Doktor S wrote:

snood wrote:

To the Satanist, this glyph is a representation of "Black magic," symbolizing the triumph of matter and individual desires over religious dogma- earth over an illusory promise of heaven. It is not analogous to the upturned cross (which is a symbol of rebellion against Christian culture), and is not "anti-Wiccan."

In modern Satanic theology, the pentagram is far more likely to represent the individual, or the choice to pursue individual glory or immortality rather than union or absorption with the divine- where some traditions advocate the sublimation of the ego or submission to god, Satanism exalts and glorifies it, deifying the human being

Wow. Someones been doing their research.
I'm proud of you snood
Anyhow, this information is the real mccoy. Right on the money.

Anyone who deifies himself has a fool for a god. And you know what you can do with your "I'm proud of you".

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I think the Christians have a muddled idea of Satan. Their ideas of a Satanic figure came from the dualism of Zoroastrians - Ahriman, god of evil. The original Hebrew God was both good and evil and good and evil deeds. Satan was just a celestial prosecutor in the heavenly court. When the Hebrews ended up in Babylon and Persian Emperor Cyrus let them return he had the polytheistic Hebrews turn monotheistic thru Ezra, the priest. Satan then ended up being the mythical Ahriman. Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 was a prediction of the future and Christian mistook that to be Satan and a struugle in heaven. Lucifer is Jesus as no other personage in history ever fit the description where he "ascends into heaven", says he is like "the most High", placed his throne above "the stars of God", etc. the way the Gospels lays claim to.

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snood wrote:

mesquite wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
The upside down pentagram represents Satan. It is the same as denouncing God. To wear it is to attract evil around you. It will not bring good spirits around you. Normally it is only worn by Satanists or devil worshippers.

Can you show me a bible passage where Satan is credited with evil of the magnitude commanded by God in Numbers 31: ?

What is it with you guys? Is there some argument about who Satan is supposed to be? Do you have some other definition for Satan besides the angel cast out by god, whose power is in darkness and evil? and that's if you accept the traditional descriptions of him. If you don't, what is the contention? that God is the evil one, and satan just misunderstood? Or is it just picking fights for the pure joy of it?

It was a simple enough question. are you having a problem with it?

My entry into this thread was here where I commented about your denigration of Dokor S's belief.

I did that because of your hypocrisy on the issue of criticizing others beliefs.

To me both the Bible God and Satan are merely mythical figures, but to answer your question, yes, in at least some parts of the Bible God is the evil one and satan the truth teller. The Garden of Eden story is one such example.

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snood wrote:

Doktor S wrote:
snood wrote:

To the Satanist, this glyph is a representation of "Black magic," symbolizing the triumph of matter and individual desires over religious dogma- earth over an illusory promise of heaven. It is not analogous to the upturned cross (which is a symbol of rebellion against Christian culture), and is not "anti-Wiccan."

In modern Satanic theology, the pentagram is far more likely to represent the individual, or the choice to pursue individual glory or immortality rather than union or absorption with the divine- where some traditions advocate the sublimation of the ego or submission to god, Satanism exalts and glorifies it, deifying the human being

Wow. Someones been doing their research.
I'm proud of you snood
Anyhow, this information is the real mccoy. Right on the money.

Anyone who deifies himself has a fool for a god. And you know what you can do with your "I'm proud of you".

*kiss*

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mesquite wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
The upside down pentagram represents Satan. It is the same as denouncing God. To wear it is to attract evil around you. It will not bring good spirits around you. Normally it is only worn by Satanists or devil worshippers.

Can you show me a bible passage where Satan is credited with evil of the magnitude commanded by God in Numbers 31: ?

Don't you have your own bible?

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What does the upside down star(pentagram) mean to you?

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