What does the upside down star(pentagram) mean to you?

snood wrote:

In my opinion, there is well defined evil in this world.

And what good is pointing out your opinion if you are not prepared to back it up?

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Quote:

The pentagram seemsto represent the goat's head or Baphomet

http://www.newworldordercafe.com/Art/Occult/Satanic/pentagram.jpg

yes but not just a goat. the goat is satan, as im sure you knew by your reference to baphomet, (Jesus is the lamb)

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth: and he had two horns, like a lamb: and he spoke as a dragon." -- Apocolypse (aka Revelation) 13:11

The Pentagram also has some significance in free-masonry http://freemasonrywatch.org/baphomet.html

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Doktor S wrote:

Does seem a bit of a juxtaposition doesn't it?
I make a distinction between perception and hard reality.
Freedom, will, and independence all 'seem' to exist, so it is only pragmatic to work with that. Regardless of the hard mechanics...which is what I have been arguing here.

Freedom without responsibility?

Setanta wrote:

Neo is free will obsessed . . . i'll have to PM him for his address, and send him a gift certificate for one free will.

Whatever you send, may it not be under any compulsion.

Chumly wrote:

And a pope on a rope soap as cleanliness is next to godliness.

You are so kind.

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Chumly wrote:

snood wrote:
In my opinion, there is well defined evil in this world.
And what good is pointing out your opinion if you are not prepared to back it up?

Well chumly, most of the stuff posted here on A2K is unsubstantiated opinion, ya gotta admit.

Besides, I am secure enough that I think I can withstand you not accepting my simple stated opinion - "evil exists". All I have to do is open my eyes, and I can see it - if you can't so be it.

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Neo wrote:

Freedom without responsibility?

I don't see it as axiomatic that responsibility is exclusive to freewill. If you do something, you have still done it..regardless if the action was predetermined, of it was an active of the putative 'freewill'
It seems a hard pill to swallow for those hung up on 'fairness'.
Life ain't fair.

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snood wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Good and evil are purely subjective judgments.

That's my story, and i'm stickin' to it !

In my opinion, there is well defined evil in this world.

Of course. But that other people have differing opinions about what constitutes 'evil' seems to evidence it's subjectivity.
Evil is well defined, but only after you as an individual define it.

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Doktor S wrote:

snood wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Good and evil are purely subjective judgments.

That's my story, and i'm stickin' to it !

In my opinion, there is well defined evil in this world.

Of course. But that other people have differing opinions about what constitutes 'evil' seems to evidence it's subjectivity.
Evil is well defined, but only after you as an individual define it.

So if someone somewhere believes (for instance)the torture of a child to be not evil, then it is somehow not evil? I submit that the torture of a child would be evil all the time, no matter what any individual thinks.

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Some people, and often for a religious reason, believe that what can be described as the torture of a child is acceptable--such as in a case in which it is alleged that devils are being driven out of the child. (There was such a case recently in England in which the child died.)

Therefore, your submission still constitutes an opinion, or a subjective judgment. That it happens to be an allegedly overwhelmingly agreed-upon opinion does not alter the fact that it is not absolutely universal, and therefore nevertheless constitutes a subjective statement of preference.

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Setanta wrote:

Some people, and often for a religious reason, believe that what can be described as the torture of a child is acceptable--such as in a case in which it is alleged that devils are being driven out of the child. (There was such a case recently in England in which the child died.)

Therefore, your submission still constitutes an opinion, or a subjective judgment. That it happens to be an allegedly overwhelmingly agreed-upon opinion does not alter the fact that it is not absolutely universal, and therefore nevertheless constitutes a subjective statement of preference.

Well, if nothing else, I will leave this discussion with a much clearer understanding of moral relativism.

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"Moral relativism" is code among the rightwing self-righteous for no morality at all. To the extent that i consider morality to be a self-serving dodge of the religiously and politically pushy, that's not a problem for me.

To the extent that it attempts to calumniate others for having no ethical standards at all, it constitutes a lie, and whining about having been disagreed with.

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I would suggest that you read Beyond Good and Evil by ol' Freddy Neitzsche, but i suspect it would bore you. It bored me, but i found it stimulating in some of the ideas presented.

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snood wrote:

So if someone somewhere believes (for instance)the torture of a child to be not evil, then it is somehow not evil? I submit that the torture of a child would be evil all the time, no matter what any individual thinks.

Yeah, like in Numbers 31. There is an abundance of evil being directed there.

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Setanta wrote:

"Moral relativism" is code among the rightwing self-righteous for no morality at all. To the extent that i consider morality to be a self-serving dodge of the religiously and politically pushy, that's not a problem for me.

To the extent that it attempts to calumniate others for having no ethical standards at all, it constitutes a lie, and whining about having been disagreed with.

No - not at all Setanta - way over the top, in fact. I beg your pardon - I have no problem with being disagreed with. I only run into problems when I feel slandered, spoken down to, or dismissed, etc.

I disagree that moral relativism has to be code for anything - taken just for what it means, it makes great sense. Or maybe you care to explain to me, what the hell is an "ethical standard" if there is no good or evil?

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Yes, an ethical standard is an individual or shared judgment about what constitutes good or bad--and as such, it is subjective. My objection is to unrealistic absolutes, such as the contention that there is any such thing as morality. Therefore, when i hear sneers such as moral relativism, i consider that i am being slighted, and talked down to.

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Setanta wrote:

Yes, an ethical standard is an individual or shared judgment about what constitutes good or bad--and as such, it is subjective. My objection is to unrealistic absolutes, such as the contention that there is any such thing as morality. Therefore, when i hear sneers such as moral relativism, i consider that i am being slighted, and talked down to.

And I agree that the term has ben hijacked by those who use it just as you say(just like I think 'politically correct' sometimes is used by those who don't want to be encumbered by common rules of decency), but the term had a meaning besides a sneer before it was so hijacked.

Anyway, I'll stand by my assertion that somethings are just plain bad, even if I have to stipulate that they're only bad 99% of the time.

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I don't deny that many things which are commonly considered to be bad can be argued to be nearly universally bad, in that those who do not agree are a- or antisocial. Nevertheless, the natural order of the cosmos does not dictate that these things are bad--human judgment dictates that. To that extent, good and bad, or good and evil, are always subjective judgments, which is the point i've been trying to make. I'm not saying you are wrong to condemn child torture, i'm simply pointing out that it is a subjective judgment. It is a subjective judgment functions as a good foundation in a successful society which intends to promote equity and decency.

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I just ran across this thread for the first time and, frankly, haven't got the patience to read all eight pages of comments. So, if somebody already has made this comment, I apologize in advance for the repetition.

1) To reverse something, i.e. present it upside down, is to dis it. Every gangsta on the street knows this. That's why Satanists use upside-down Crucifixes in some of their rituals.

2) The five-pointed pentagram, among many other things, is one of the symbols used by the Folk Nation cartel, the "umbrella organization" for such teen-age gangs as the Bloods. The Crips, on the other hand, hang under the other major "umbrella organization," People Nation. They use the six-pointed Mogen David as a symbol.

If you see a five-pointer scrawled upside down in a 'hood you're passing through, it means that it"s Crip territory, not Bloods turf. Anyone wearing a red do-rag better stay away. They're in danger of being toasted.

Anything else you wanna know about teenage gangs, why, just ask me.

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snood wrote:

Chumly wrote:
snood wrote:
In my opinion, there is well defined evil in this world.
And what good is pointing out your opinion if you are not prepared to back it up?
Well chumly, most of the stuff posted here on A2K is unsubstantiated opinion, ya gotta admit.

Besides, I am secure enough that I think I can withstand you not accepting my simple stated opinion - "evil exists". All I have to do is open my eyes, and I can see it - if you can't so be it.

You keep inferring I have provided an "opinion" on the matter at hand, and that this presumed "opinion" of mine is contrary to your "opinion". Yet I have most definitively neither accepted nor denied your claims, nor provided any of my own as per evil. All of this is wholly in your imagination.

I have simply and quite reasonably called your claims to task. I will also add it's wholly irrelative what other posters do or do not substantiate, and it's
wholly at my discretion as to how I might take other posters to task, or not, but rest assured I have and will; otherwise one might as well read opinion polls on such claims as you have made here about evil.

Go ahead I challenge you to back up your claim that "there is well defined evil in this world".

Well defined by whom?
What is evil?

I'll bet you dodge it yet again.

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Merry Andrew wrote:

Anything else you wanna know about teenage gangs, why, just ask me.

OK, how come you know 'bout them, and what area of the world, and what time frame?

(snood take note)

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Chumly, I am a teacher of these brilliant young minds in the juvenile justice system in Massachusetts. My students are all young (ages 14 to 17, sometimes a tad younger, sometimes a tad older) boys who have been detained by the authorities and are awaiting a court hearing in a secure lockup. There is very little about current gangs in the USA (and some of them, believe it or not, have international affiliates) that I don't know. Most of these kids are quite proud of their membership in whatever organization and will gladly brag about it. With this kind of population in my classroom, I deal mainly with police officers and probation and parole officers and social workers rather than with parents. Trust me. I know more than is good for me.

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What does the upside down star(pentagram) mean to you?

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