JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 12:20 am
I don't recall. Maybe Lightwizard knows.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 12:37 am
Re: Philosophy
JLNobody wrote:
BoGoWo (or anyone), explain why we should consider values to be either relative or absolute in nature?


Bob & Todd have the same motorcycle.
They each enjoy it the same amount.
They each have the same standard of living and income etc., in fact everything about these two guys is the same.
Except Bob got a much better deal on the bike than Todd.

Since all else is equal except for the price both paid, the relative value and the absolute value in this closed environment goes to Bob with the cheaper bike.
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 02:13 am
You know my position on this.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 04:37 am
Cider House Rules:

Plot Summary for
The Cider House Rules (1999)
Homer is an orphan in remote St. Cloud, Maine. Never adopted, he becomes the favorite of orphanage director Dr. Larch, who imparts his full medical knowledge on Homer, who becomes a skilled, albeit unlicensed, physician. But Homer yearns for a self-chosen life outside the orphanage. When Wally and pregnant Candy visit the orphanage Dr. Larch provides medically safe, albeit illegal, abortions Homer leaves with them to work on Wally's family apple farm. Wally goes off to war, leaving Homer and Candy alone together. What will Homer learn about life and love in the cider house? What of the destiny that Dr. Larch has planned for him?

Summary written by Martin Lewison {[email protected]}

Saw the movie, but don't think that I read the book. The author is John Irving.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:03 pm
That was funny, Chumly, but, of course, economic value is not of the same universe of discourse as the values of familial values, ethical values, aesthetic values, etc.

Thanks Letty, but that was the most superficial of summaries (by Lewison). To me the essential message of the story was the difference between absolute values (e.g., Homer's moral rejection of abortion) and situational ethics (Homer's realization that in some situations it was ethically acceptable, even essential).
Consider the scene in Tom Sawyer where Tom was with the escaped slave, Jim, and they were hiding from the slave owner and his dogs. Tom was torn between his desire to have Tom find his freedom (e.g., situational ethics) and his "moral" obligation to turn Tom in to the slave owner. I think at one time Tom even decried his own "badness."
It's been half a century since I read the book, so it might have been Huck, rather than Tom.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 07:15 pm
It was Huck, J.L. <smile>
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 07:40 pm
Thanks, sweetie. You're always so tactful.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2006 04:39 pm
Actually, JL. Huck's having to abandon his cultural belief in favor of Jim was a type of unlearning. He decided to go to hell rather than betray the runaway slave. Quite a decision for a kid on a raft with no education, right?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2006 06:12 pm
O.K., he decided to go to Hell--for transgressing moral principles--but he complied with his own ethical values. This epitomizes the difference between personal ethics and social morals. They most often coincide, but it's important to know that they can differ in principle.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2006 06:37 pm
Wow! the hamster is a slow learner, JL. I thought I would never get this reply posted.

Agreed. <smile>
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 08:05 am
JLNobody wrote:
I am my values, Osso, but not my society's moral code(s). Some morals coincide with my values, some don't.
I also consider ethics to differ from morals. If anything morals are frozen ethics. Sometimes we must do what the situation calls for as "right" regardless of the rules. Have you seen that wonderful movie, The Cider House Rules?
Situation ethics suit me, as an autonomous individual, much more than conventional moralism--although we cannot live without the latter as a society.

I don't understand the distinction. If situational ethics are "right," then they are "right" according to some standard. If not according to a standard of morality, then what?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 10:10 am
Hi, Joe. In situation ethics, you and I may interpret a socially endorsed moral standard differently in dealing with a particular situation or we may select and apply different standards. Our difference in these cases reflects that fact that standards are general but situations are particular. As such, individuals may make an individualistic effort to tailor their own ethical responses to situations--picking from here and then from there as they see fit--or they may just mechanically pick a "commandment" without much consideration, viewing the situations to which they apply a commandment grossly.
Another characteristic of the situational ethical perspective, as I understand it, is that the individual takes responsibility for instances where his decision turns out to be injurious to others. The moralist, as I define him, merely says "It's not my fault; I applied the appropriate commandment of Moses' Decalog.
I acknowledge, of course a considerable amount of overlap between the two models. The situational ethicist probably uses (consciously or not) standards derived from his culture's (or other societies, if he is very cosmopolitana) moral code(s), but he does so in the process of conscientiously tailoring his actions to carefully evaluated situations. The moralist is more grossly and mechanically, and socially less responsibly, oriented in this regard. And, of course, it is a matter of degree, not just type. The distinction between situational ethics and morality are abstract notions to think with more than they are descriptions of distinct kinds of "things" in the world.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 10:42 am
JLNobody wrote:
Hi, Joe. In situation ethics, you and I may interpret a socially endorsed moral standard differently in dealing with a particular situation or we may select and apply different standards. Our difference in these cases reflects that fact that standards are general but situations are particular. As such, individuals may make an individualistic effort to tailor their own ethical responses to situations--picking from here and then from there as they see fit--or they may just mechanically pick a "commandment" without much consideration, viewing the situations to which they apply a commandment grossly.
Another characteristic of the situational ethical perspective, as I understand it, is that the individual takes responsibility for instances where his decision turns out to be injurious to others. The moralist, as I define him, merely says "It's not my fault; I applied the appropriate commandment of Moses' Decalog.
I acknowledge, of course a considerable amount of overlap between the two models. The situational ethicist probably uses (consciously or not) standards derived from his culture's (or other societies, if he is very cosmopolitana) moral code(s), but he does so in the process of conscientiously tailoring his actions to carefully evaluated situations. The moralist is more grossly and mechanically, and socially less responsibly, oriented in this regard. And, of course, it is a matter of degree, not just type. The distinction between situational ethics and morality are abstract notions to think with more than they are descriptions of distinct kinds of "things" in the world.

Well, I don't understand this either. Perhaps it's merely some terminological confusion. "Ethics," as I understand the term, concerns actions that are either praiseworthy or blameworthy according to a system of morality. In other words, ethics is "applied morality." Thus, all ethics are, by definition, "situational" ethics.

Consequently, I don't quite know what you mean by opposing "situational ethics" to "moral codes." All ethics are dictated by moral codes. For instance, suppose you hold a moral principle that lying is wrong. Now, a situation might occur where you are asked by a murderer, intent on killing your friend, to disclose your friend's location. In that situation, would it be right to lie to the murderer in order to protect your friend? If your "situational ethics" permits you to lie in that circumstance, then either there is something in your moral code that holds that lies in that kind of situation are morally praiseworthy (or at least not blameworthy), or else there is some other standard by which you judge the rightness or wrongness of your actions (in which case, I would argue, you are not dealing with "ethics" at all).

Likewise, if the "moralist" acts and then says of the consequences "not my fault, I followed the Ten Commandments," then that simply means that the moralist's actions are justified according to how closely they conform to the Mosaic law, and that consequences are immaterial. That may not be an admirable system of morality, but it is a system of morality nonetheless, and it differs little from any kind of "situational ethics" that is itself informed by a system of morality.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 12:28 pm
Joe, your points are well taken, especially: " 'Ethics,' as I understand the term, concerns actions that are either praiseworthy or blameworthy according to a syste' of morality. In other words, ethics is 'applied morality." Thus, all ethics are, by definition, 'situational" ethics'."

But I do see "ethics" as more praiseworthy/blameworthy from the perspective of the actor than from the moral community in which he lives. And, again, I am not making an absolute distinction, recognizing that the ethical actor has been socialized within his community (i.e., he has internalized many of its standards).
I agree that ethics is "applied morality" and that all ethics is, ultimately, "applied" morality, but in the application of morals we see great differences between individuals. A major difference is seen between the type of individual who applies social standards "creatively" and "responsibily", understanding them to have limited guidance value and the individual who applies morals as absolute directives.
I am not so much opposing situational ethics to moral codes as as I am opposing the behavior of situationalists and absolutists. The former apply ethical standards creatively and self-consciously while the latter do so with a moral posture that is blindly conventional. One is existentially conscientious; the other is little more than a lazy social automaton, "not an admirable system of morality", as you put it. What I am talking about is the admirable application of values.

By the way, thank you for saving this thread and forcing me to refine my argument, and perhaps to modify it eventually.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 04:09 pm
JLNobody wrote:
But I do see "ethics" as more praiseworthy/blameworthy from the perspective of the actor than from the moral community in which he lives. And, again, I am not making an absolute distinction, recognizing that the ethical actor has been socialized within his community (i.e., he has internalized many of its standards).
I agree that ethics is "applied morality" and that all ethics is, ultimately, "applied" morality, but in the application of morals we see great differences between individuals. A major difference is seen between the type of individual who applies social standards "creatively" and "responsibily", understanding them to have limited guidance value and the individual who applies morals as absolute directives.

That may be true, but then that sounds more like sociological question than a philosophic one.

JLNobody wrote:
I am not so much opposing situational ethics to moral codes as as I am opposing the behavior of situationalists and absolutists. The former apply ethical standards creatively and self-consciously while the latter do so with a moral posture that is blindly conventional. One is existentially conscientious; the other is little more than a lazy social automaton, "not an admirable system of morality", as you put it. What I am talking about is the admirable application of values.

That's more of a psychological question.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 04:51 pm
Correct, but I see no reason for philosophy to exclude psychological and sociological considerations. Are you thinking of a philosophy that is confined to formal logical analyses?
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 04:51 pm
Well, Joe, then there is social psychology. Where does that walrus fit? Razz
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 08:43 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Correct, but I see no reason for philosophy to exclude psychological and sociological considerations. Are you thinking of a philosophy that is confined to formal logical analyses?

No, not necessarily, but I am thinking of a philosophy that deals with philosophical questions. What motivates a person to do good or evil is a worthwhile question to ask, but it's not a philosophical one. Ethics is fundamentally prescriptive, not descriptive. It tells us what we should do, not what we can do or how we do it.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 08:46 pm
Letty wrote:
Well, Joe, then there is social psychology. Where does that walrus fit? Razz

In the social sciences. It's not philosophy.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2006 09:03 pm
Joe, the title of this thread was to be something about "values." I meant to put it in the philosophy forum, not for it to be ABOUT philosophy, per se. I meant to make a comparative DESCRIPTION between situation ethics and conventional morality, and to invite contrasting descriptions. I agree, and don't mind, that my discussion is tinged with prescriptive implications. I understand your reservation.

Regarding your response to Letty, there does exist a (sub)discipline of sociology called the Sociology of Knowledge (which is tangential to philosophy). And there is the well-established discipline called the Sociology of Science.
0 Replies
 
 

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