Is truth worth it?

Aperson,

I use the term Abrahamic because it refers to all of the religious variations that have evolved from "Abraham". All hold essentially the same fundamental views. Some of these similarities are: A monotheistic creator resembling a human being; finite time with a beginning and an ending; a god that concerns himself with the minutia of human existence; a god who interferes with the operation of Natural Laws; a future that is fixed, but where humans have Free Will, and that the followers of their particular brand of religion are alone favored of god.

In my view the Abrahamic faiths are a religious toxin. They are intolerant of other faiths and, in two out of three of the major theological branches, have almost fanatical missionary zeal.

When I intend to speak of one branch, or another of the Abrahamic religions I do referred to them more specifically. For instance, if I want to draw some parallel or contrast some difference between, say, a Christian sect and one of perhaps the Sufi's, I'll refer to them as such. Even Judaism, the mother of these religions is divided into a number of schools and sects that sometimes have almost as much difference as commonality.

Well thanks for that.

Your dislike for "the Abrahamic Faiths" is obviously fueled by emotion. Perhaps the story about your family plays a part.

Re: Is truth worth it?
Nice to meet ya', aperson. Ain't these guys fantastic?! A highly enjoyable thread. I'm getting some good smiles.

Your original post:


Are you asking, beyond all the references, if truth is worth pursuing at any cost?
That if God does not exist: should we accept it and tell?
:wink:

<ohhh>

If that is your Q......?

Q. Is truth worth it?

A. The truth will set you free. (John 8: 32)

flushd,

This matter has been discussed and I've been crushed, as you will see if you look back earlier in the thread. And I have changed my views accordingly.

flushd,

This matter has been discussed and I've been crushed, as you will see if you look back earlier in the thread. And I have changed my views accordingly.

all truth comes from outside

moment to moment

my typing here is a contradiction...from the intellect

step outside of the intellect...the contradiction falls away


.

But your faith is obviously a very tolerant faith. Except of those who disagree with you. Like those of the Abrahamic faiths that you so despise.

Hmm. Interesting. I didn't see crushing, but I'm interested to hear how your views changed.

I didn't think about this thread much before I put it up. And I made myself look like a fool.

No, you didn't. Some who answered were unmercifully clumsy.
If there were no free will, the truth might be frightening:



With free will, truth seems likely to give the most hope.

I do the same thing all the time, most (all?) posters do, even if some (most?) will never admit it.

You can't think about everything all the time and it's not as if your dog is going to treat you any differently when you get home.

OK cheers guys. Chumly, how not you know I don't have a highly intelligent cybernetic dog with direct access to the internet??

You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
-----------Steven Wright

A RELIGIOUS PILGRIMAGE

when I was much, much younger and more certain of all things, I WAS intolerant of the Abrahamic religions. I never missed an opportunity to argue with them, to hit them over the head with their inconsistencies and reluctant to accept scientific fact. I was thoroughly unpleasant to the "faithful".

My dislike for the Abrahamics developed over a long period of time. I have relatives who are Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, Episcipal, and Baptists, some of whom are so extreme that they refuse to be contaminated by being associated with me. Growing up in the Southwest, there were few Jews around, but one of "our gang" was Jewish and his sisters were extremely popular in school. I never met a Muslim until I first visited Western Asia back in 1959, and even then only moved among them untouched. During most of my youth the family's prediction was that I would probably become a preacher of some sort or a lawyer, because I was bookish and argued with a great deal of passion ... even when I had little knowledge to argue from.

I quietly visited each of the churches in our town, and made a point of talking to all the ministers. I had a lot of questions for the pastors, and got a lot of different answers, many of them only momentarily satisfying. There was, to me at the time, a surprising lack of consistency in the answers to my questions and the reasoning behind the answers were even less consistent. I mostly practiced my own version of Christianity, but was officially a Mormon to satisfy my stepfather (a long story you don't want to know). I rose to be an LDS Priest, served the sacraments, and visited elderly members of the congregation with an Elder. One, who had a local reputation as a prophet predicted that God intended and expected great things of me. Yeah, sure. Until the day he died one of my relatives who was a popular preacher was convinced that I would convert to his brand of religion and lead the flock to glory. Yeah, sure.

Having grown up mostly on a remote ranch in the Southwest, I was unprepared for the teeming masses who inhabit Times Square at midnight . Wickedness, as I defined it then, was everywhere and went unpunished, or even noticed. In the military, I saw admirable people who had no apparent religion at all! In Barcelona I visited a Cathedral that was begun at the end of the Middle Ages, and was still unfinished. Inside, hidden in darkness, were wonderful paintings, the alter and appointments everywhere were dripping with gold and jewels. A soft light streamed in through high stained glass and brought a hint of warmth to the massive granite walls. Awe inspiring. I let after a time and stood at the top of the Cathedral steps looking out over the City, it was a beautiful day. Going down the steps I was surrounded by beggar children, many of whom looked as if a meal a day would have been a welcome improvement. How can a religious organization justify its wealth and power, while taking the Widow's Mite from the mouths of orphans?

On board ship my reading expanded. I began to seriously study books dealing with all of humanities approaches to religiosity. I read perhaps less of the Ancient Greeks, and more of modern philosophy. I discovered Sociology and began reading old college textbooks on Psychology. History though remained a constant in my tiny destroyer space. The more I read, the more doubts I had about all religion and religious practice. Agnostic was probably the best label for my belief structure at the time. I had idolized Voltaire since I'd discovered him around age 13, and now I wondered if his anti-religious tracts had gone far enough. Can religion trump justice? How can one be compassionate while consciously destroying the religions of people who never asked for it? The links between missionary efforts and brutal conquest appeared everywhere I looked in studying the Abrahamic religions. Chauvinism and prejudice seemed to be a hallmark of the three religions. I began to wonder if monotheism was really better than polytheism, or pantheism.

For awhile I was intrigued with Existentialism, but it left Man alone with no moral ground to stand upon. If existence is absurd, then what is to be done about all the suffering we witness around us? Laugh at the maimed? I could not be so cruel. If morality and ethics are relative to time, place, and circumstances, then the Nazi or Soviet versions of the Holocaust might be regarded as not only "good", but the highest "virtue". Surely not! What makes up justice, and shouldn't there be some foundation for the legal systems that we choose to govern our lives? When a man is confronted with choices of what to think, say or do, must he think through the entire accumulated body of human knowledge?

In a way, this line of thinking is entirely theoretical because human societies are already committed to philosophical, religious, and cultural norms. Even if the Christian foundations of the United States could be proven wrong, wrong, wrong, little could be done to change to something more rational. Not being able to fully comprehend "Truth" about all of human kind, might it be possible to find some sort of "Truth" for oneself?

By 1961, I considered myself as a Buddhist. I didn't know anyone else who was Buddhist, and took a lot of heat from fraternity brothers and classmates. I moved to San Francisco, and immediately found lodgings in a building that served as a "monastery" for the Bush Street Zendo of the great Zen Master Suzuki. My reading continued, I sat and practiced and had an on-going dialog with the Master. My meditation lengthened and life settled down into predictable paths. There are no "free" moments, nor is there much excitement in the monastic life. Always the maverick, I began frequenting the coffee houses of San Francisco during the period allocated for sleep. I liked playing chess and the free-ranging discussions in the dead of night. I became friends with Wobblies, Beatniks, and a variety of anarchists. That resulted in more frequently falling asleep during sitting meditation, and I got used to the stick ... even looked forward to it.

One night I met my future wife, and within a few weeks she found us an apartment in North Beach. We were on the fourth floor of a building with no electricity, but it did have real gas lights. Friends donated an old refrigerator and we wrestled it up to the top floor. For electricity, we ran an extension cable from the basement of the house next door. We cooked in/on an electric frypan that Natalie bought from a coffeehouse that was raided by the Police only moments after she had left. I still attended the Zendo on the other side of town, but because it was a long walk my absences became greater. To his credit the Master never reproached me for leaving the monastic life. Natalie and I had hardly anything, but we read a lot and I had time again to paint.

We belonged to a group of younger Beatniks who were increasingly being called Hippies. All night intellectual discussions continued and we were experimenting with alternative social values. Typically we rejected society's authority to dictate our morality and ethics. We rejected the great American ambition to become wealthy as a honey-trap to put individuals into little boxes of ticky-tacky (Melvina Reynolds made that into a song popular at the time). Anything that proscribed and constrained the individual creative drive was at the very least suspicious. The cops hated us, and as a group we were persecuted mildly (if you regard kidney beatings in alleyways mild). Carol Doda's topless club brought more cash to North Beach than all our Beatnik/Hippy hangouts, so we had to go. Some went to Mexico looking for Bill Bourghs and magic plants. Some, like Gary Snyder, went to Japan and joined monasteries there. Some took to hiking the back trails of Nepal and India. Some went back to New York, and some like us went up to the Haight-Ashbury and formed Communes. Youthful idealism was preponderant, and for a time it was exhilarating and wonderful. Unfortunately, but inevitably, we became too famous and were invaded by tourists, teeny-boppers from Kansas, and pimps, drug dealers and thieves. Strange people turned up living in our closets, and to kick a drug addict out only moved them from our kitchen to the front steps. Understandably, Natalie soon left me.

She found a small apartment near the San Francisco Actor's Workshop where she was a second-string actress. I joined her and we began edging our way out of the now (to us) toxic Hippy scene, though a small group of my followers continued to come around for months. To escape finally, we decided to go to Mexico where the cost of living was low and the light was good for painting. We had almost nothing (ah, the virtues of poverty ... if you can forget being hungry and worry about being kicked out into the street). The first stage was to fly down to L.A. (that den of inequity and tasteless popular culture). Getting off the plane, Natalie lost my most valuable possession ... a battered old Navy Peacoat.

In Los Angeles, we learned Natalie was pregnant. We bit the bullet and bowed to society and family pressure and formalized out marriage at the Soto Sect Buddhist Temple on Hewitt Street. We were married by the highest ranking Buddhist prelate in the United States at the time, and remained a part of that congregation of mostly ethnic Japanese for probably twenty years. I worked for various aerospace manufacturers as a certified metallurgist for a decade, while going to college nights.

After receiving a B.A.s in History and Asian Studies, I went into the Oriental Philosophy and Religion graduate program out of Cal State Long Beach (a branch of the Univ. of Cal.). I had already studied Mandarin as part of my work with early Chinese Buddhism/Taoism. My Doctorate seemed a long way off and instructing a bunch of college students in such an esoteric field hardly seemed worth the effort. I transferred to Law School and then did a Masters degree in Public Administration ... a practical application where my efforts might actually reduce suffering.

There is nothing like a political life to make a person cynical. About half my political life was spent working as an administrator in the fourth largest police department of L.A. County. I saw there the best and worst of humanity, both in and out of uniform. I saw compassion in surprising places, and witnessed just how cruel human beings can be. As part of my position, I was in constant contact with other police administrators around the world, and that in itself was a rare window onto the human condition. As part of the police establishment I was, in a way, insulated from daily political warfare. That changed when I was promoted and sent to serve in a variety of "fix-it" assignments. Politics is a world where nothing is as it seems, and nothing should be believed easily. Old "friends" knife one another secretly at the least opportunity. Promises are so seldom kept that they are virtually meaningless. Forever is about two weeks. Money and votes count far more than Party loyalty, the public good (whatever that is), or just plain common sense. Egos and personalities are huge and are often the most important element in getting anything done. Petty hatreds are far more common than even a glimmer of selflessness. Its a hard world, but it has its own rules and norms.

Now I'm old, but still I like to read, study and learn new things. I've come to grips with many of my own prejudices, and have mellowed. I still regard the Abrahamic religions as fundamentally toxic, but no longer feel the need to convince anyone of that. Even as dangerous as these religious groups are, they have some usefulness. Whether they are right (yeah, sure), or not isn't really even at issue with me. They exist today and are believed in passionately by a good portion of the world's people. We have to deal with both the religions and with those who are convinced of their religion's validity. Attacking the beliefs of a person will not convince them to change, but by treating their beliefs with respect we might mitigate some of the suffering attendant. I've come to learn that we can not control history. Individuals trying to control and direct society are as likely to muck things up as they are to improve human life. There are always unintended results, and not every improvement is worth the cost. We can try to "force" people to do "good", but it will always be our version of good and we are as susceptible to error as the least among us. "Enforceable virtue" isn't virtue at all, only a behavior put on like a cloak. People coerced harbor resentment and hatreds that must eventually destroy those who do the dictating.

Our best, perhaps only, hope of reducing the world's suffering is to concentrate our efforts on ourselves. We may not be able to dictate what someone thinks, but we can control what our own thoughts will be. Thoughts and attitudes are personal, but they are sooo easily influenced by our compatriots. Each of us can work to develop our critical facilities, and to examine carefully and honestly our own prejudices and beliefs. We can abandon old and worn-out concepts, and adopt new ones.

From our thoughts, we form our words. How carefully do we weigh our words before turning them loose on the world? What effect will they have? Will we cause suffering by a careless communique? Probably, but have we considered at all the balance between an intended "good" and the suffering that will spring from it? Wise men don't jibber-jabber, and shouldn't wisdom one of our most cherished goals? Who is it that we seek to convince, the world or ourselves? By simplifying our task to self-improvement that question is less difficult to answer. When we argue with an opponent there is a risk that we will regard them as stupid, ignorant, easily duped, or even maliciously evil. Our arguments may only incite retaliation and resentment. Our words are powerful things. Words are the foundation for concerted action.

If we confine our actions to only those things we can control, then we will leave our neighbor in peace. In youth we are given a garden with deep rich soil capable of growing many things. At first we plant the crops of our parents and ancestors. Some will eventually question whether those crops are the "best", and might change their farming methods. Some will let their garden take care of itself, and it will go wild and filled with weeds. Some will over do everything and the fertility of the land will be killed. Almost everyone will take an interest in their neighbor's garden, and will have endless advice about how it should be farmed. All of the time spent in critiquing our neighbor's garden is stolen from our own tasks, and our garden is the worse for it. Pay attention! Pluck out the weeds early, and irrigate the little shoots who might someday bear fruit. Working in your garden is hard work, and you will be at it constantly. A promising plant may prove a disaster to others and need to be taken out. Pruning is constantly needed, to insure beauty and the production of flowers and fruit. Life is a long term project, and the results of our effort (or lack of effort) won't be evident for a long time. We have to be patient and diligent even when the rewards may not appear in our lifetime. We feed our families from OUR garden, and they should be nourished not starved. Our example will be followed, so shouldn't we provided a "good" example? The success of our garden will be evident in its bounty, and serve to inspire our neighbor to likewise tend to their garden. We can improve ourselves, and promote harmony within our family and friendship circles. From that tiny seed, revolutionary change may someday occur. We must be patient and diligent so that generations from now someone can sit in the shade of our trees and enjoy a sweet apple.

Pay attention!

Thanks for sharing, hell of a post! Might I ask what motivated you to post it and why here on this thread?

In response to this above on the last page from Real Life:

"Asherman wrote:

In my view the Abrahamic faiths are a religious toxin. They are intolerant of other faiths and, in two out of three of the major theological branches, have almost fanatical missionary zeal."

But your faith is obviously a very tolerant faith. Except of those who disagree with you. Like those of the Abrahamic faiths that you so despise.

and by Aperson's comment to another of my earlier comments:

"Your dislike for "the Abrahamic Faiths" is obviously fueled by emotion. Perhaps the story about your family plays a part."

I get the feeling that my opinions aren't very well understood, and I would like them to be. I do try for clarity.

You certainly laid out your perspectives and experiences very well indeed, I enjoyed reading it.

You offer the disclaimer that when you were younger , you WERE intolerant of the Abrahamic faiths.

From my perspective , your statement that they are 'religious toxin' and 'intolerant' and 'fanatical' indicates that you are still intolerant of them.

Perhaps you don't understand how the opinions you express come across to others.