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Intelligent Design is not creationism

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 06:47 am
Doktor S wrote:

Why do you suppose that is? Perhaps because the memes of christianity have been so deeply impressed apon your person that you cannot distinguish where one stops and the other begins?


Interesting observation. And what do you suppose are the "memes" that have formed your views?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 07:12 am
farmerman wrote:
george, I get tears in my eyes when I hear someone extoll the virtues of "the applied". We are such an overlooked frontier of science and eng. There is such an academic caste system imposed between the "applied" disciplines and the theoretical. In the 70's , when chemistry took on a new role with "nano reactions and super molecularity", It took us applied people to find out what we can do with all these adsorbed buckyballs.

I must say, Ive had my "fling" with the theoretical, but she had left me cold and full of angst that results in a "whats the point?" attitude.
Im more like the old Bill Cosbyline about being asked "why is there air"?
and I would immediately say"to disperse particles"


I agree with you there. I got a large dose of all that , and for a while was infatuated with theoretical mechanics (mostly fluid mechanics - a hot topic at the time). I had enough of the theoretical science world, and, armed with my new Ph.D. went back to flying fighters.) I got away with that only because of 'Nam & the Navy's need for pilots.

Oddly the theoretical stuff came relatively easily for me, but I had to struggle to grasp even elementary physical chemistry. Some were able easily to visualize what united groups of elements, forecast reactions, and have a feel for the many quasi equilibrium reactions we encountered, but I had to work at it just to survive.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 07:30 am
Lightwizard wrote:
I must admit I did not know anybody quite like GeorgeOB at Cal Tech, although most of them did have distinct problems in communication. As far as complex constructs go, that group of boxcar sentences incorporates a style of writing I've always regarded as pretentious and prosaic at the same time. It may not be intentionally misleading -- many who have faith cannot explain it other than that unerring fact that it's nearly impossible to have faith in another person. In the end, one way or another, they will betray your trust.


Well, axxhole, that too was rather pretentious and patronizing itself. Is "boxcar sentences" a term of art in the scriptwriting world? Yours aren't particularly Hemmingwayesque either.

"... may not be intentionally misleading...". Glad to learn there is hope for me --

Nicely made psychological speculations based on prose style and unsupported, categorical slams of those who "have faith". But do they really mean anything? Do they illuminate the ideas under dixcussion? I think not.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 08:09 am
Boxcar sentences are almost never encountered in any film script. Any editor would blue pencil those indulgences in a flash no matter where they show up. An English instructor would run out of red pencil. I've never claimed to be Hemingway, nor Faulkner, nor Maugham for that matter. Not sure how any fiction writer's styles would have a place in a public forum in this particular subject -- you're not unintentionally misleading again, are you? This was about whether ID is Creatinism or not so I fail to see where your scientific meanderings have anything to do with the subject. I don't know any more about what you do believe than when you joined the discussion.

I have no desire to make anyone doubt their faith. I understand that the fear of randomness is real and religion is one way to explain randomness.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 08:38 am
I believe that both Maughm and Faulkner were avid producers of what you call boxcar sentences. It is true contemporary fashions, necessarily shaped by popular media, run to more compact and linear expression than what prevailed as recently as a generation ago. However one shouldn't confuse that with lasting truth or merit.

I have already been chastized for focusing on an aspect of the larger question here that is a bit off the nominal topic. I admit the fault. I left for a while, and the on topic discussion ran its course for several pages and then wound down. I resumed and the aspect of it that interests me attracted some interest, comment, and reuttal from others, so I continued. Let's not make a Federal case out of it.

I'm sorry I haven't made my case clear to you, but please understand that yours isn't clear to me either. I have tried to focus on the question of a creator, independently of any commentary or opinion about the merits, or lack of them, in religion. I have pointed out that the question of origins is not answered by science, and that nothing in any of the available subjective choices on the question, including the idea of a creator, presupposes or preempts anything in our science. Finally, I have expressed my own belief on the subject, and tried to outline the essentially subjective reasons that motivate me to choose it. I don't think I have been at all misleading in this.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 08:46 am
Chumly, Thought-provoking comments. I'll think about them as I do some Saturday erranda & get back.

Left California a few days ago for some business and to escape the rain. It's raining like hell here in Washington today. I wonder if the sun is shining in California?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 08:57 am
We're getting a low pressure flowing into Southern California but only expecting some precipitation.

The high pressure to actually describe ID has not resulted in very coherent participation.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 09:10 am
"Precipitation" is that what they call rain in LA? Smile (I was briefly tempted to call that a boxcar word, however, I rallied and overcame it.)

I haven't even attempted to "describe" ID, coherently or otherwise. I have, however, noted the inconsistencies and incompleteness of physics in describing what followed the initial singularity which it makes no attempt whatever to explain or describe.

I still like your avatar.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 10:18 am
Precipitate or participate, someone is raining on someone's parade.

Inconsistencies and incompleteness of physics could be stated as being nearly as abstract as what was there before the Big Bang. I guess that's another dark matter.

I just find a human-like intelligent superbeing which leaves no trace of its existance to be out of the realm of even the abstract. We're back to Voltaire's paradigm -- if there were no God, it would be necessary to invent one.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 10:43 am
george ob
Quote:
I have, however, noted the inconsistencies and incompleteness of physics in describing what followed the initial singularity which it makes no attempt whatever to explain or describe.

Agreed, for now, I feel that, on the other hand, if we were all to sit down around a table and agree that a research effort could be planned and it would have certain components of inquiry. Right or wrong, the foreskin of sciebce would be "Pulled back".
From what I hear from you is, and tell me if Im wrong."If we dont have a verifiable explanation at this moment, then we default to God". Ok Ill accept that as a challenge.

Remembre, when the Manhattan project began, scientists were split between a sustainable isolated chain reaction and a more serious one wherein the entire atmosphere would go critical.
To build a bomb, they needed to know whethre they couled even sustain a critical reaction, then develop a trigger, then focus the neutrons,Each problem was attacked in order from a theoretical equation into a prastctical application.
Right now, we have about 5 or 6 cosmological phenomena that fit a "model". Equations surrounding this model have been developed and we can test equation and model components.
If we can formulate the question , were partway there. I dont think thats being too ful l of hubris, do you?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 11:00 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Quote:
In grad school I developed a real affection for applied mathematics. I got into advanced Linear Algebra, Tensor Analysis, Generalized Harmonic Analysis, etc, believing I was discovering new worlds. I still recall the day when I discovered that a Finite Fourier Transform was merely an Hermitian matrix. The whole structure that has so fascinated me collapsed into two or three central ideas. Then along came chaos and fractals. accompanied by new evidence of nature's use of self similar forms and the potential for chaos (deterministic but unpredictable. and yet self-regulating systems - all imbedded in even the simplest non-linear equations, but long ignored. Sensitive dependence opened so many new doors - ranging from classical problems like turbulent viscous flow to even new understanding of the complexities of the genome -- the relative difference between the information in ours and that of worms is trivial compared to the whole - and yet the difference! Later, I suspect we will discover yet another simplicity hidden by our usually overly complex constructs.


georgeob1, it seems to me that where systems analysis said one thing to you, it said something entirely different to me. Well, thats what makes the world go 'round, I s'pose. Anyhow, with your background, you might get a kick outta This - an essentially useless, but endlessly fascinating (if you're into that sorta thing) entertainment.

A sidebar: While he himself yet has not produced "The Answer", I strongly suspect that if indeed "The Answer" ever is to be determined, its determination will stem from permutations of a paradigm shift in scientific thinking consequent to the work done by Stephen Wolfram ... a figure as controversial in today's academic/scientific world as were any of the likes of Aristotle, Pliny, Gallileo, Copernicus, Newton, Pasture, Roentgen, Planck, or Heisenburg in theirs. I suspect also that if and when "The Answer" ever is worked out, it will be absurdly simple, a mathematic principle evident but overlooked, unrecognized, for all our preceeding millenia of computational thought and philosophic conjecture.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 11:18 am
I think the scientific map is there and scientists are headed in the right direction because nearly all the evidence points in that direction. Science sometimes takes side streets because the fork-in-the-road isn't clearly marked. If they turn out to be deadends, they can double-back and get on the right road. Kind of like if I didn't know Trenton, New Jersey even existed but had a map to it, I could still make a wrong turn. Eventually I will get there. I know, who in the Hell wants to go to Trenton, New Jersey?

Scientists are skeptics and already know they can't find all the answers as quickly as they would like, mainly because haste makes waste. To give up, throw up one's hands and declare some super-being has designed all of it, otherwise it could not exist, is the chicken's way out.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 12:27 pm
Hi georgeob1,
Always a pleasure chatting with you, quite the fascinating live you have led. We had fun on Canada v. US

Hi Lightwizard,
I googled boxcar sentences and it turns out a popular usage is consecutive sentences for inmates, if that's not humors I don't know what is!

Hi timberlandko,
I am reading Stephen Wolfram's website.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 04:40 pm
farmerman wrote:

From what I hear from you is, and tell me if Im wrong."If we dont have a verifiable explanation at this moment, then we default to God". Ok Ill accept that as a challenge.
Not exactly my proposition, but close enough.

farmerman wrote:
Remembre, when the Manhattan project began, ........,Each problem was attacked in order from a theoretical equation into a prastctical application.

Right now, we have about 5 or 6 cosmological phenomena that fit a "model". Equations surrounding this model have been developed and we can test equation and model components.
If we can formulate the question , were partway there. I dont think thats being too ful l of hubris, do you?


I agree with that but note two things (1) With unexplained phenomena such as 'dark (noninteractive) matter, as yet undetected, but a needed major constituent of the mass-energy of the cosmos, and inflation both out there, there are formidable as yet unexplained phemomena which themselves may, in the end, require a wholly new model. In addition the very odd apparent fine tuning of the big bang towards a balance between eventual contraction and accelerating expansion of the resulting universe, cries out for explanation. (2) Nothing in modern physics promises (as far as I can understand) to deal with or explain the initial singularity, the big bang, itself. In general in science, the presence of such a singularity in the mathematical model of a physical theory is a clear and reliable indication of a fundamental deficiency or incompleteness in the theory itself. A cosmological model that fully explains the observable universe from the initial bang will still not explain the originating event itself. Moreover, I know of nothing in contemporary physics that promises such an explanation.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 05:04 pm
THat's one-hundred percent clearer and I can empathize with your reluctance to favor the presebt model. What I am getting, however, is the idea that there has to be a designer who is trying to hoodwink us into thinking the Big Bang was a real event. Did this super-designer actually initiate the Big Bang and, if so, what was there before it was all created? Were did (does) this super-designer reside? In a giant hammock in the sky? Or are we merely existing in its brain? Also, does this mean you are rejecting the notion of a "heavenly father" who is floating up there somewhere beyond the clouds, sporting an ample beard and a robe from J. C. Penny (I'm guessing he must be thrifty).
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 05:41 pm
georgeob. The "saop bubble" analogy of coexisting multiverses with membranal edges has several devotees as well. Remember, if we can define the problem then we are partway there.
The thing that the "applied" has always left me in comfort is the concept of field equations and similitude. We are always calculating effects, reactions, phenom, etc, in terms of other similar fields with functions that describe one process. Similitude allows us to model one thing in terms of another. Like all the forms of F= C {Q1 X Q2/R**} get me wanting to read the journals of theoretical geophysics for whats gonna happen next.Just as E=mc** is just an extension of Newtonian F=Ma and , we should be teaching kids the connectivity, not the "uniqueness " of all science.

_______TOTAL DIVERSION________________
Im no fluid dynamicist but Ive always had a spot in my heart for the discovered country of field equations that extend from turbulent flow through laminar and Darcy, all the way down to chemical diffusion. I think, in parallel, the descriptions of the Brane theory will not necessarily chuck out the big bang, but fit it within another spectrum of field equations. I think that Darcy hydraulics(or similar families of equations) may be applicable to space/time
Hell, Im only a rocknocker with just enough sideways knowledge to be dangerous in areas that Ive not spent great afternoons of time. . One thing Ive always been impressed with the theoretical is the economy of infrastructure, I was told that when MK hubbert and J Rubey developed their(Hydraulics) mechanisms for lateral foldbelts and propogation of continental forces, they did it with a freshly emptied beercan.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 06:31 pm
A church is a place in which gentlemen who have never been to heaven brag about it to persons who will never get there.

H. L. Mencken
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 06:33 pm
haw
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 07:11 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Or are we merely existing in its brain?
God's brain is bigger Button
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2006 07:17 pm
I would hope we are in his cerebral cortex but I kind of doubt it. I think we are in the reptilian stem.
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