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Intelligent Design is not creationism

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 03:46 am
Teleologist wrote:
Creationism posits a supernatural creator. ID doesn't.
If as you claim ID does not posit a supernatural creator, it must follow that ID gives credence to a natural creator therefore show me where ID'ers believe advanced extraterrestrial from a far away planet are the intelligent designers.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 03:49 am
Teleologist wrote:
The reason ID critics insist on calling ID creationism is because they want to discredit ID with the public by associating it with the controversial tenets of creationism.


Indeed, that is true, but why do you think I want to do that?

It's because ID is just like Creationism in one aspect: It is not science. ID is not a tenable scientific position. You cannot teach it in a science class, because you cannot use science to prove its position to be true or for that matter prove it to be false.

Quote:
It's not that they merely want to point out that creationism and ID both posit an intelligent designer behind the origin of life because that wouldn't discredit ID with the public.


That's not why scientists want to discredit it. Intelligent Designers have nothing to do with it. As real life would love to point out to you, many pro-Evolutionary scientists believe in a God. They may believe in something similar to ID, but their belief is not in ID, because of one major stumbling block to the hypothesis.

ID states that anything we cannot explain must be attributable to an Intelligent Designer.

Your position is also dishonest, because you claim that the people who do not like ID solely hate it because it posits a God-figure. This is not true.

I don't like it because of the fact that I placed in bold. ID is an affront to science and an affront to God. It encourages sloppy thinking (saying God did it, is a lazy, easy way out that does not encourage further critical thinking into a problem that is at the time unsolveable). Furthermore, ID reduces God to nothing more than a plug, a convenient explanation; it is humiliating to the concept of God.

That is why I find the derogatory term, ID-iot very, very appropriate.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 04:16 am
I made an error in my prior post, it should read:
Teleologist wrote:
Creationism posits a supernatural creator. ID doesn't.
If as you claim ID does not posit a supernatural creator, it must follow that ID gives credence to a natural creator, therefore show me where ID'ers give credence to the concept that advanced extraterrestrials are the intelligent designers.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 04:33 am
Wolf wrote-

Quote:
ID states that anything we cannot explain must be attributable to an Intelligent Designer.


Are you sure Wolf.That hasn't been my imprssion.

Quote:
That is why I find the derogatory term, ID-iot very, very appropriate.


It is only appropriate for bigots and people with low vocabularies and especially so when used to designate a fairly large,respectable and often highly intelligent section of the population.It borders on a "own goal".
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 05:10 am
Teleologist wrote:
Creationism posits a supernatural creator. ID doesn't.


This is a mere word game--as has been pointed out to you, unless you posit (and can demostrate the existence of and persistent proximity of) an extraterrestrial life form responsible for the rise of life on earth (and the constant "tweaking" thereof--ID supporters articulate the "watchmaker analogy," whether or not they admit the theological aspects)--unless you stipulate all of that, you have no alternative than a creator for which there is not a naturalistic explanation. Super- or sub-natural, it don't matter, you gotta have a designer if you posit "intelligent design."

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Creationism claims the earth is 6,000- 10,000 years old. ID doesn't dispute the earth is 3.5-4 billion years old.


Only young earth Christian creationists make this claim. Many creationists are willing to stipulate an old earth.

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Creationism claims the earth's geology can be explained primarily by a worldwide flood. ID doesn't.


Only young earth, biblical literalist Christian creationist stipulate this. Many creationists (not all creationists are Christian) do not.

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Creationism claims that "Created kinds" of plants and animals can vary only within fixed limits. ID doesn't make this claim.


Only certain (usually Christian or Muslim) creationists make this stipulation.

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Creationism rejects common ancestry. ID doesn't.


Only certain (usually Christian or Muslim) creationists make this stipulation.

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Creationism disputes that humans and apes share a common ancestor. ID doesn't.


Only certain (usually Christian or Muslim) creationists make this stipulation.

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Creationism is anti-evolution. ID isn't.


This is only true of certain fundamentalist, or charismatic, Christian and Muslim creationists.

Quote:
The reason ID critics insist on calling ID creationism is because they want to discredit ID with the public by associating it with the controversial tenets of creationism. It's not that they merely want to point out that creationism and ID both posit an intelligent designer behind the origin of life because that wouldn't discredit ID with the public. Polls show that around 45% of Americans believe that God created plant and animal life as described in Genesis. Another 45% believe God guided an evolutionary process to do the job. Neither group has a problem with ID being behind the origin of life so the ID critics aren't going to get anywhere by pointing that out. But the group that accepts God guided evolution can be turned against ID if they are convinced that ID supports a young earth, rejects common ancestry, is anti-evolution etc. And that is the strategy behind the ID critics calling ID creationism. It is a dishonest effort to misrepresent ID.


This is not simply false, it is knowingly disingenuous. A theory of evolution does not stipulate cosmic origins. You are the one who is hawking false remarks about young earth, christian creationists--as though no other type of creationists existed--because it is convenient to a disingenuous argument on your part.

That the interdisciplinary evidence for an old earth is overwhelming is not to be disputed--but that does not get ID off the hook for trying to hustle god in the back door. ID has not the slightest scientific underpinning, and the obvious purpose is to introduce religious doctrine into science curricula. If ID wishes to posit an intelligent designer--and have this taught as science--then it needs to provide a scientific basis for alleging that intelligent designer. The silence on the issue of the designer from the ID crowd is deafening. Until there is a scientific basis for alleging an "intelligent designer," ID belongs in the comparative religion curriculum, along with all other forms of creationism.

Just as soon as the ID crowd can produce genuine, empirical evidence, of the type which you have already (falsely) claimed is avaiable, ID will get serious scientific consideration. Until such time, it won't
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 05:14 am
spendius, alluding to the ID crowd, wrote:
. . . a fairly large,respectable and often highly intelligent section of the population.


This is an unwarranted statement for which no evidence is advanced. That is not to be wondered at. The member making this claim commonly speaks ex cathedra, and never offers support for the contentions he makes.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 05:27 am
I'll agree that I have assumed that the long running nature of this debate which has involved court witnesses with higher educational claims,school board members,obvious funding and serious attention being paid to it seems to me satisfactory evidence,without opinion polls, to come to the conclusion I did.I said "fairly large","respectable" and "highly intelligent".All three are specious terms I know but I don't think many would dispute them if they thought about them for a short while.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 05:33 am
The Designer Guys

They are Intelligent Designers by definition Rolling Eyes
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 07:05 am
Teleologist wrote:



Sure, both ID and creationism posit an intelligent designer behind the origin of life but that doesn't make them the same. There are many differences. Here they are:

Creationism posits a supernatural creator. ID doesn't.
Asked MANY TIMES.. who or what it this designer if not a supernatural one? HOW DO YOU DESIGN WITHOUT CREATING? Answer that simple question. Design without any creation.

It can't be done unless it is a blind watchmaker using existing parts. :wink:
Quote:

Creationism claims the earth is 6,000- 10,000 years old. ID doesn't dispute the earth is 3.5-4 billion years old.
Some strict creationists do, but not all do. Creationists also use the argument that there was a gap from the creation of the earth to creation of life, that a day could be millions of our present years long in context of creation and that there were actually 2 creations, the second happening in the Garden of Eden.

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Creationism claims the earth's geology can be explained primarily by a worldwide flood. ID doesn't.
You are mixing mythologies now. Some creationists believe in the flood. No evidence that all creationists do. Those that use the argument that the world is actually that old but creation took longer than 6 days would disagree with you here.

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Creationism claims that "Created kinds" of plants and animals can vary only within fixed limits. ID doesn't make this claim.
And how do you design without creation?

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Creationism rejects common ancestry. ID doesn't.

Creationism disputes that humans and apes share a common ancestor. ID doesn't.

Creationism is anti-evolution. ID isn't.

The reason ID critics insist on calling ID creationism is because they want to discredit ID with the public by associating it with the controversial tenets of creationism.
The reason is because it REQUIRES A CREATOR in the form of a designer.
Until you can show HOW something can be designed without any creative process it is creation. Your narrow definition defies the dictionary definition. Design is creation. No matter how you look at it.

Quote:

It's not that they merely want to point out that creationism and ID both posit an intelligent designer behind the origin of life because that wouldn't discredit ID with the public. Polls show that around 45% of Americans believe that God created plant and animal life as described in Genesis. Another 45% believe God guided an evolutionary process to do the job. Neither group has a problem with ID being behind the origin of life so the ID critics aren't going to get anywhere by pointing that out. But the group that accepts God guided evolution can be turned against ID if they are convinced that ID supports a young earth, rejects common ancestry, is anti-evolution etc. And that is the strategy behind the ID critics calling ID creationism. It is a dishonest effort to misrepresent ID.
It is your effort that is dishonest.. You steadfastly refuse to explain how you can design without creating.

You ignored my definition -
Quote:
Creationism- any belief that life was created in some manner by a supreme being of some kind. The manner doesn't matter, nor does the supreme being. ID is a form of creationism since it assumes a supreme being and creation through design.

Many different kinds of creationism can be found here...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html
I suggest you go read the MANY kinds of creationism found in my link.

But FIRST and FOREMOST, I would like to know how you design without creation.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 07:15 am
parados wrote:
Forensic analysis is pretty common in science. One doesn't have to observe something to conclude with reasonable certainty how or when it happened. You compare the present evidence from an unknown event with evidence from observed events.


You would compare evidence from similar events.

You would not expect the same debris from an airliner crash as you would from a mountainslide caused by dynamite, although both may have involved an explosion.

With the Big Bang, by definition you do not know what you are starting with (airliner or mountainside) , so what are you gonna compare it with and how is any comparison valid?

You are comparing a 'something' with a 'nothing'.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 07:33 am
real life wrote:
parados wrote:
Forensic analysis is pretty common in science. One doesn't have to observe something to conclude with reasonable certainty how or when it happened. You compare the present evidence from an unknown event with evidence from observed events.


You would compare evidence from similar events.

You would not expect the same debris from an airliner crash as you would from a mountainslide caused by dynamite, although both may have involved an explosion.

With the Big Bang, by definition you do not know what you are starting with (airliner or mountainside) , so what are you gonna compare it with and how is any comparison valid?

You are comparing a 'something' with a 'nothing'.


Actually you can compare evidence from a mountainslide with a plane crash. Gravity is the same for both, strength of materials doesn't change, etc. You can't compare EVERYTHING but certain aspects of both would follow the same rules of physics.

As for the Big Bang, lots of ways to compare. The Doppler effect is used for figuring out the movement of galaxies, (expanding) and doppler effect is used for sound of approaching train whistles. Explosions, items move away from the explosion source. You are not comparing something with nothing at all. You are using known reactions to an event and using observed items as a reaction to an unknown event to hypothesis what event caused present conditions.

Forensic pathologists don't have to kill someone in the exact same way to figure out the blood spatter from a victim or the cause of death. They use other experiments. It is the same with Big Bang proponents. They can do experiments and observations.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 07:35 am
spendius wrote:
I'll agree that I have assumed that the long running nature of this debate which has involved court witnesses with higher educational claims,school board members,obvious funding and serious attention being paid to it seems to me satisfactory evidence,without opinion polls, to come to the conclusion I did.I said "fairly large","respectable" and "highly intelligent".All three are specious terms I know but I don't think many would dispute them if they thought about them for a short while.


The term "fairly large," in a nation with a population of almost 300 million citizens implies at the least, several millions. What evidence do you have that there are several million supporters of "intelligent design" in the United States? If you can substantiate the allegation, i will withdraw the objection.

The term "respectable" implies adherence to at least a notional morality. As has so often been pointed out in these fora, after the Supreme's 1987 decision to exclude creationism from school science curricula, proponent's of creationism blatantly changed the text of existing books to substitute the words "intelligent design" for "creationism." Subsequently, some of the more perfervid supporters of "intelligent design," such as Mr. Dembsky and Mr. Behe, contended that "intelligent design" were not "creationism." During the Dover trial, they admitted on the witness stand that documents had been fiddled to hide the creationist origins of the text, by the substitution of "intelligent design." They also admitted that they could offer no scientific evidence to support "intelligent design." As is the case with the author of this thread, they had denied that "intelligent design" is, in fact, creationism tarted up as something new. However, they subsequently, in sworn testimony, admitted their charade. Do you consider that "respectable?"

I don't for a moment dispute that these men and others like them are intelligent. The evidence of many members of this site provides good support for a contention that intelligence by itself does not necessarily recommend a point of view.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 07:45 am
ID definitions.

Quote:
Definitions of intelligent design on the Web:

"The idea that an intelligent designer played a role in some aspect of the evolution of life on earth, usually the origin of life itself. Generally, a thinly disguised version of scientific creationism."
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072863129/student_view0/chapter5/key_terms.html

Intelligent Design (or ID) is a highly controversial claim holding that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent designer, rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. Most ID advocates state that their focus is on detecting evidence of design in nature, without regard to who or what the designer might be. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology is a controversial 1999 book by William A. Dembski in which he presents an argument in support of the conjecture of intelligent design. In it, Dembski defines the term "specified complexity", and argues that instances of it in nature cannot be explained by Darwinian evolution, but instead are consistent with the notion of intelligent design. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Design_(book)


Teleologist, do you agree with these definitions or do you have a preference of one over another?

Quote:
Dembski defines the term "specified complexity", and argues that instances of it in nature cannot be explained by Darwinian evolution, but instead are consistent with the notion of intelligent design. ...

This sounds to me like the age old human ignorance repeating itself. If we don't understand it then the Gods are responsible.

By the way Dembski makes a declarative statement that the complexity of nature cannot be explained by natural selection. He is stating that this statement is absolute and beyond question. I would suspect that Dembski is wrong here. I suspect that at some point science will be able to explain the development of complex structures in nature without the aid of a God. Perhaps they can now, I don't know. I just happen to put far more faith in science answering our questions rather then passing it off to some deity.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 08:08 am
xingu wrote:
By the way Dembski makes a declarative statement that the complexity of nature cannot be explained by natural selection. He is stating that this statement is absolute and beyond question. I would suspect that Dembski is wrong here. I suspect that at some point science will be able to explain the development of complex structures in nature without the aid of a God. Perhaps they can now, I don't know. I just happen to put far more faith in science answering our questions rather then passing it off to some deity.


In 1802, the Reverend William Paley, in his book Natural Theology, or Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity collected from the Appearances of Nature, proposed the rather simplistic thought experiment to the effect that if one finds a watch in a field, this is evidence of the existence of a watchmaker. This "watchmaker analogy" became the more popular after the publication of The Origin of the Species. It was not, however, new. At sometime before his death in 43 CE, the Roman orator Cicero wrote:

Quote:
When you see a sundial or a water-clock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. How then can you imagine that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence, when it embraces everything, including these artifacts themselves and their artificers?


Cicero's argument could obviously not have been described as "the watchmaker analogy," there being no watches in his era. It has been called the watchmaker analogy since Paley's book came out. The best term is "the argument from complexity." It was articulated by Robert Hooke in 1664 as follows:

Quote:
For, as divers Watches may be made out of several materials, which may yet have all the same appearance, and move after the same manner, that is, shew the hour equally true, the one as the other, and out of the same kind of matter, like Watches, may be wrought differing ways; and, as one and the same Watch may, by being diversly agitated, or mov'd, by this or that agent, or after this or that manner, produce a quite contrary effect: So may it be with these most curious Engines of Insect's bodies; the All-wise God of Nature, may have so ordered and disposed the little Automatons, that when nourished, acted, or enlivened by this cause, they produce one kind of effect, or animate shape, when by another they act quite another way, and another Animal is produc'd. So may he so order several materials, as to make them, by several kinds of methods, produce similar Automatons.


Which suggests the Mr. Hooke deserves the dubious distinction of author of the watchmaker analogy. Voltaire also advanced the argument from complexity, and in more than one passage of his writing.

Paley gets the honors because of the historical context of his pronouncement. In the 17th century, many members of the Puritan sect of congregational Calvinists had taken up "natural philosophy" (roughly, what we call science) as the study of the wonder of "God's" creation. This not only continued unabated by the calamities of sectarian-inspired civil wars in England, it prospered in the 18th century. When Paley proposed his watchmaker analogy at the beginning of the 19th century, he was responding to the growing unease with which theologians viewed the enormous and ever increasing evidence, especially in geology, which contradicted a simple literalist adherence to biblical writ, and threatened to bring Bishop Ussher's exegesis alleging a 6000-year-old earth into disrepute and ridicule.

The subsequent publication of the theory of Darwin and Wallace made Paley's version of the argument from complexity, or watchmaker analogy, all the more appealing to the religionists who now adopted the attitudes and hysteria of a beseiged force, fighting in the last ditch. It should surprise no one that Dembsky trots the old whore out, dresses her in the latest fashions, trowelling on a thick layer of make-up, to attempt to make her appealing to the masses. There is nothing new under the sun, the poet tells us, and that seems to apply to "intelligent design" as much as it does to poetry.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 08:21 am
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
parados wrote:
Forensic analysis is pretty common in science. One doesn't have to observe something to conclude with reasonable certainty how or when it happened. You compare the present evidence from an unknown event with evidence from observed events.


You would compare evidence from similar events.

You would not expect the same debris from an airliner crash as you would from a mountainslide caused by dynamite, although both may have involved an explosion.

With the Big Bang, by definition you do not know what you are starting with (airliner or mountainside) , so what are you gonna compare it with and how is any comparison valid?

You are comparing a 'something' with a 'nothing'.


Actually you can compare evidence from a mountainslide with a plane crash. Gravity is the same for both, strength of materials doesn't change, etc. You can't compare EVERYTHING but certain aspects of both would follow the same rules of physics.

As for the Big Bang, lots of ways to compare. The Doppler effect is used for figuring out the movement of galaxies, (expanding) and doppler effect is used for sound of approaching train whistles. Explosions, items move away from the explosion source. You are not comparing something with nothing at all. You are using known reactions to an event and using observed items as a reaction to an unknown event to hypothesis what event caused present conditions.

Forensic pathologists don't have to kill someone in the exact same way to figure out the blood spatter from a victim or the cause of death. They use other experiments. It is the same with Big Bang proponents. They can do experiments and observations.


Why would you assume an explosion just because objects appear to move away from a (somewhat) central point? Is there no other possible cause?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 08:32 am
Such as, say, Poofism?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 08:54 am
If God was dictating to the writers of the Bible what actually happened, he left out a lot of cosmology and physics, even simply explained. Could it be that it was made up? Creationists cannot point to any part of Genesis and conclude that God made Earth (out of nothing) and the Universe (out of nothing) and decided to make it expand, among many other evidences, just to thwart our minds to believe otherwise. If one reads texts on cosmology, the only viable alternative has been the plasma space theory. The concept of energy only existing in nothingness and the beginning of the Universe and that energy exploding (expanded) to become the material Universe is as perplexing an abstraction to Creationists (and IDers) as the concept of infinity itself. Where does this intelligent designer dwell? Is it, or them, borrowed out of Clarke's "The Sentinel" (made into "2001" by Kubrick and Clarke), then where did they come from? Religiousity heads need answers again to this randomness as the randonmess doesn't just make them wonder, it makes them fearful. Fearful that they do not have control of even their own daily lives, or especially the people and the environment around them.

I realize this focus on cosmology is not answering the question about whether ID is Creationism in sheep's clothing -- it still will befuddle the uneducated who really have no claim that they are that educated in theology either.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 09:04 am
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
The term "fairly large," in a nation with a population of almost 300 million citizens implies at the least, several millions. What evidence do you have that there are several million supporters of "intelligent design" in the United States? If you can substantiate the allegation, i will withdraw the objection.


The problem here is due to a general term,i.e.intelligent design (God) being used as a specific label.I can't produce evidence for ID as you use it except for the seeming power of its proponents from which I tend to assume a groundswell in back of it.But used as a general term I have seen many polls showing that a majority of Americans have some residual belief in a God (an intelligent designer).

I used "respectable" in its ordinary usage.People who wear nice clothes,have well paid jobs,live fairly peacefully with the neighbours and bring their daughters up to remain virgins well past the time when an evolutionist would expect that not to happen.They might read the New Yorker and have Jane Austen books on the coffee table and a few dozen bottles of beauty products in the bathroom.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 09:10 am
Intelligent designer is being used as a euphemism as a higher power is used in AA as "God." It's suppose to make some people more comfortable out there, including school boards and judges. It's not working -- get real.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 09:12 am
As has been pointed out before, by a stretch both ID-iocy and Science may be termed "beliefs" ... the quantitative - and critical - differentator being the relative body of evidence supporting the conclusions and postulations set forth by either.

By all evidence, we may assign to religion an age at least as old as the burial practices, cave paintings and totem figurines we find to have emerged some 45 millenia or more ago.

Science is much, much younger; whether traced to the Asian continent or the European, its real antecedents and origins are perhaps 5 millenia or so old, evidently less than 8 or 10, however one defines "science", for without writing and numeric notation, there can be no science.

A huge body of evidence - "evidence", now, as distinct from "experience" and "tradition" - has been accumulated. To date, despite a head start of several dozen millenia, religion has yet to add to the body of evidence humankind has accumulated.
0 Replies
 
 

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