Are science and religion converging?

Pascal's Wager is a false dichotomy, and ignores both the costs of belief and the possibility that if there is a god, it is nothing like the God of the Bible and will not punish people for exercising free will.

If you live as if there is a god who created everything in 6 literal days, flooded the earth to drown his mistakes, made the sun stand still, and can cure disease by casting out demons, you have missed understanding the scientific principles that led to inventions such as airplanes, computers and life-extending drugs.

If you live as if God is vengeful and wants you to kill heretics, witches and homosexuals and severely punish people for any infractions of the Rules, you have missed humanity.

If you live as if God wants women to be silent, submissive baby factories, you have missed the political, scientific and artistic contributions of half of the human race.

If you live as if God does not want anyone to question his Holy Word, you have missed learning critical thinking skills that might lead to breakthroughs that could enable mankind to live in peace and prosperity.

If you live as if God requires you to build cathedrals in his honor and support an expensive and useless priestly class, you have missed enjoying the fruits of your labor.

If you live as if you are slaves of God, you have missed knowing that you are a child of the universe, you have the freedom to live life as you see fit, and you do not need to get down on your knees and beg forgiveness for being human.

If you live as if there is no god and find that there is, a just god would understand that your decision was based on the evidence (or lack thereof) available to you, and would judge you on the life you lived, the love you gave, and the lessons you learned. There would be no punishment for making an honest mistake.

If you live as if the Christian God is supreme, Allah may punish you for making the wrong choice. Or you may be reincarnated as a pig.

"...and you do not need to get down on your knees and beg forgiveness for being human."
Sing it sistah!
Off topic: Cecil Adams isn't a g-d, but he's working very hard on it.
http://www.straightdope.com/

"If you live as if there is no god and find that there is, a just god would understand that your decision was based on the evidence (or lack thereof) available to you, and would judge you on the life you lived, the love you gave, and the lessons you learned. There would be no punishment for making an honest mistake."

...but that, too is a wager.

You said a lot, but I'll just say my god is not vengeful, and that part of "living as if" there is a God means to include faith. And that is nothing to base a debate on.

Science has the answer. c.i. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030630.html?list=tru

Be nice, Cicerone (although that image was damn funny). And you tell the clouds to be nice, too.
http://www.satirewire.com/news/aug02/jupiter.shtml


"snood
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:08 am    Post subject:
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"If you live as if there is no god and find that there is, a just god would understand that your decision was based on the evidence (or lack thereof) available to you, and would judge you on the life you lived, the love you gave, and the lessons you learned. There would be no punishment for making an honest mistake."

...but that, too is a wager.

You said a lot, but I'll just say my god is not vengeful, and that part of "living as if" there is a God means to include faith. And that is nothing to base a debate on."


Snood, I get advantages from not being religious. I have no guilt of a religous nature, feel no "sin", and feel no remorse from participating in sexual acts. My beliefs and values do not coincide with those of any major religion I am currently aware of, and being a member of such would be deleterious to my scientific and social values. I can understand some of the benefits other people get from their belief in a g-d, but having some benefits doesn't make somthing the correct choice. I live my life based on my personal experiences. Iv'e been exposed to literature, science, and art, philosophy, family, animals, etc. none of these influences in my life have pointed to a god, and I am fully able to enjoy my life without pretending there is a diety watching my moral outcomes as prescribed by a book. I'm sure in that final hour, I will want some sort of comfort that my body and self will not perish, but there is no reason for me to believe otherwise.

If you believe in faith, how do you know what to have faith in?

I have logical reasons to believe that the scientific method, and the methods of debate will steer me to truth. Because having faith in most book-bound dieties would require me to ignore some of the things I can sense, It would be a contradictory thing to do.

Historically, people have believed in dieties such as Zeus, Inanna, Loki, Jesus, any Pharasis-god, Mary Magdalene (one of the mystery cults), Yaweh, muhammed, etc. I think that because we hold those old relgions to be false, there is a good chance the new relgions are also false. There are cycles of things that cause repitition throughout human history. Would you have faith Muhammed? Zeus? What if you lived in a time when everyone believed in these dieties?

All in all, it is a wager. But it's one I'm prepared to make. If a guy in the subway says he'll kill me if I don't give him all my money, and he's a cripple with no weapons and looks insane, I'm not going to give him my money. If a 2000 year old book tells me I'll be specially tortured for the rest of eternity because of certain life choices, I'm prepared not to devote to them the only precious life I have to live.

PS, A very well stated thesis on how you live your life. Actually, I've read someplace that humans have created over 2,500 gods, and I chose not to believe in any of them. My philosophy of life is very simple; treat all living things with respect and dignity. I'm realisitic; I know I fail sometimes, but that's okay, because I know that my standard of ethics and humanity meets all of my personal needs and goals. c.i.

Snood, Terry, don't be hypocritical persons, both views are so obviously hypocritical , for me there's no god & there's no possibility that there is one since all the concept was made by man.


& if you live by believing in a god you miss the perpetual quest for the truth! :wink:

Come on, guys, really, which smart person now a days believes in the god of the bible! :wink:

Dux

How can you possibly accuse others of hypocrisy when you indulge in the hypocrisy of insisting that know there is no god -- and you know there is no possibility of there being one.

Not only is it arrogant to post such nonsense since you are pretending to know something you obviously do not know -- the logic of your assertion sucks.

It is entirely possible that EVERY concept of god currently on the table was made by humans -- AND THERE CAN STILL BE A GOD. Even if it could be proven that every concept of god was made by man does not mean there is no god.

My guess is that nobody knows for sure -- and absolutely nothing you have said in this forum persuades me that you do.

Terry

All of your posts are great -- but that last one was exceptional. Thanks for sharing such valuable thoughts and observations.

You're not really getting it frank, if you eliminate every concept of god(which all were made by mankind), then you don't have the slightest possibility of having a god. If you still think there's a slight possibility then you haven't discard all concepts of god. You need a kind of weird logic to understand it though.

Dux, I think I understand your "weired logic." c.i.

Dux- I know lots of Christians who are smart, rational people. If they are scientists they keep their personal beliefs seperate from their work. Also, I know a lot of very religious computer science majors who are very intelligent yet have no conflicting views. It seems logical to a computer programmer to believe in an ultimate programmer, no? They are fantastic at math and functions of logic, they either don't apply it to their religous beliefs or apply a combination of extensive physics knowlede and subtle philosophy, using the concept of g-d to cover gaps of the unknown.

The thing us none of those truly believe, they are just fooling themselves since the concept of god serves a purpose, if it didn't then it would be worthless to discuss about, it helps people carry a more simple life, hat's why it's foolish to believe.

I consider myself to be a scientist and an atheist.

If we consider science and religion to be about what people "do" then clearly they are divergent with respect to their reliance on "objective data". However if we delve deeper into that word "objectivity" we see that it becomes problematic especially at the limits of our perceptual abilities to the extent that particle physicists have been said "to see what they expect to see". This is one way that a "convergence" claim could be viewed. On the other hand scientists have largely moved on from simplistic concepts of "truth" and "binary logic" towards a more probabilistic view of the universe. This transcendence for example in quantum physics as Dawkins, has implied, is close to some forms of "esoteric spirituality" if not to mainstream "religion". (See for example The Tao of Physics" by F. Capra)

Dawkins has said he is against "religion" because it stops people searching for "answers". I agree with this but it doesn't stop me from wondering why there are any answers at all !

Portal Star, I trust the answers at the Straight Dope more than anything in the Bible. Good point about guilt.


snood, how do you KNOW that your god is not vengeful? The OT God certainly was, and so is any God who would throw people into a fiery lake simply for not believing that he had a bastard human son who bypassed God's priestly communication link and negated God's previous covenant with them.

What is wrong with debating faith, particularly if it seems to be misplaced?


Thanks, Frank!

Dux, what is hypocritical about not buying into hypocritical and self-serving philosophies?

Frank is right. Even if every god dreamed up by every human culture is false, there could still be a real god out there who is the root source of the feelings that engender myths. A god might not be like anything we can imagine.

You can ask how a perfect god could create such a flawed world, how an omnipotent god could fail to alleviate pain and suffering, and point out the inconsistencies and logical flaws of every religion, but you cannot prove that there is no god. Nothing in the universe requires a god to be perfect, just, or logical. Who would make such a law, and who could enforce it?

Of course the concept of god serves a purpose! God is used as the authority to impose and enforce the laws that enable society to function. Religion fosters a sense of community, a reason for morality, an impetus for charity, comfort for the bereaved, protection from the forces of nature, strength for armies, a way to avert fate, hope for eternity, and the possibility of miracles.

No, Dux, you are the one who is not getting it.




Dux, that is so illogical it almost makes my eyes burn.

Even if you were to eliminate EVERY concept of god humans have ever made -- there is absolutely no logical reason to suppose there is no possibility of there being a god.

There certainly can be a God so different from anything a human can imagine -- that the God has never been conceived by humans. In which case, we could eliminate every concept of god -- and the God would still exist.

And just what piece of knowledge are you using to base that comment "which all were made by mankind?"

How do you know there is not a God who has revealed itself?

Or is that just a guess that you are trying to pass off as a fact?




Hummmm...a while back you were asking us to discard all concepts of god (which humans have conceived) -- and now you are asking us to discard "all concepts of god."


Kinda stacking the deck in your favor, aren't you?

Essentially you are asking everyone to discard any notion that there is a possibility of a God existing -- so that you can show there is no possibility of a god existing.

And you are accusing others of using "weird logic!!!"

Gimme a break!

Is God Only in the Brain?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8545-2001Jun15.html

Shankar Vedantam

"In Philadelphia, a researcher discovers areas of the brain that are activated during meditation. At two other universities in San Diego and North Carolina, doctors study how epilepsy and certain hallucinogenic drugs can produce religious epiphanies. And in Canada, a neuroscientist fits people with magnetized helmets that produce "spiritual" experiences for the secular.

"The work is part of a broad new effort by scientists around the world to better understand religious experiences, measure them, and even reproduce them. Using powerful brain imaging technology, researchers are exploring what mystics call nirvana, and what Christians describe as a state of grace. Scientists are asking whether spirituality can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and brain chemistry.

"What creates that transcendental feeling of being one with the universe? It could be the decreased activity in the brain's parietal lobe, which helps regulate the sense of self and physical orientation, research suggests. How does religion prompt divine feelings of love and compassion? Possibly because of changes in the frontal lobe, caused by heightened concentration during meditation. Why do many people have a profound sense that religion has changed their lives? Perhaps because spiritual practices activate the temporal lobe, which weights experiences with personal significance.

"The brain is set up in such a way as to have spiritual experiences and religious experiences," said Andrew Newberg, a Philadelphia scientist who authored the book "Why God Won't Go Away." "Unless there is a fundamental change in the brain, religion and spirituality will be here for a very long time. The brain is predisposed to having those experiences and that is why so many people believe in God."

"The research may represent the bravest frontier of brain research. But depending on your religious beliefs, it may also be the last straw. For while Newberg and other scientists say they are trying to bridge the gap between science and religion, many believers are offended by the notion that God is a creation of the human brain, rather than the other way around."

That's very interesting. Maybe there is some truth to the pinneal gland theory .

You keep guessing a god can be everything, even things that we can't imagine, it's a concept & you're still using parts of it. It's lateral thinking, it's imagination, it's simply absurd.

You just evading the fact that alll gods are man-made.

The concept of god is as commercial as it is junk food, & as wide as teh universe, since it has qualities that are not logical, they are products of the imaginations of many people, & all combined it's a pretty messed up concept. Until you decide to leave the concept out then you'll understand the logic of the lack of existence of a god.

Terry, I don't demand a god to be perfect, I know it doesn't exist, perfect or not perfect, the whole concept is as complex as the brain, but as false as unicorns.