Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Can't remember it that well - if you're not 40 years old, what's the max age you could have been during carter's term? 10 or 11?

No idea. All I can say is that I remember Carter, and I am of the adolescent age of 39.5
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:20 pm
Thomas wrote:
Lola wrote:
Besides that, a person has to be over 40 to remember Jimmy Carter.

Alright -- then it must be some other Jimmy Carter I remember. Wink

Lola wrote:
It's not a very effective line anyway, although I agree with you and with Bear that these sound bite messages are what we all deserve.

Although I happen to agree with Bear that the soundbite-ification of politics is unfortunate, that wasn't the point I was making in my post. My point was about McCains remarkable passivity.

This passivitgy shows on the soundbite level, but continues when you go to his webpage and read his statements on the political issues. The lack of initiative and original ideas in his campaign is appalling even when you compare him with his defeated Republican competition -- Mitt Romney for example. If I was a Republican, I'd hope McCain is consciously playing rope-a-dope. Because the alternative is that he's out of gas at the starting line of the general election campaign.


Right, well I should have said, to have been politically aware enough at the time to know what the experience was like. Excuse me, Mr. Smarty.

And I know your point, I was just taking the efficient way of combining my thoughts about your post and that of Bear's which I saw as related, but I see now perhaps not related enough. You and B can commiserate together on this one. I know not everyone follows me when I'm in a hurry.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:22 pm
Thomas wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Can't remember it that well - if you're not 40 years old, what's the max age you could have been during carter's term? 10 or 11?

No idea. All I can say is that I remember Carter, and I am of the adolescent age of 39.5


I'm a few months older than Thomas, still shy of 40, and I recall Carter years vividly.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:23 pm
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There are many many different forms of mental illness. Most are not self inflicted but some are.

http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/mental-health-causes-mental-illness


Most of our problems are self inflicted. That's not the question. How able we are to do otherwise is the real issue. Most of us need help some of the time. Some much more than others. It's an over simplification, I know but I'm hungry and want to go eat dinner.


Not an over simplification at all. I think none of us are 100% self sufficient nor can any of us say that we never need help. Sometimes we cannot solve our problem unless we are willing to ask for or accept available help. I think, however, that we can sometimes fail to see the harmful consequences in the "help" we offer.


Obviously too much help or the wrong kind or help, the kind that encourages unnecessary dependency has harmful consequences. It's knowing what kind of help and how much that matters. But the use of the word choice indicates a judgement about motivation that cannot be known. It would be better to use another word that better describes what you mean.


No, I think most who move in circles applicable to the word 'choice' in this context would define it as I do.

For me 'choice' is power. It is not accepting that anybody is too inferior or incapable or powerless or disadvantaged to escape their circumstances, conditioning, environment, etc. It is not promoting notiions that it is necessary to accept being a ward of the government or whatever along with whatever restrictions the keeper chooses to impose.

I think the best help is helping people to understand that sociopolitical caste systems in this country are an illusion. I think the best help is to help people see the possibilities out there and what choices are available to them and helping them find the courage and desire to make the best decisions to achieve them. And I think too often government programs intended to help are actually cruel deterrents to people making the choice to empower themselves in positive ways.

I am waiting for a President AND Congress who are willing to understand both the short term and long term consequences of what government does and who choose to do good AND do no harm.

Frankly I don't think either Obama or McCain are stellar examples of leaders with a good handle on that.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:31 pm
woiyo wrote:
"Make production of huge gas guzzlers a money losing deal, and we get smaller, more fuel efficient cars and no more resistence on the part of the car manufacturers."

What real leaders would do is provide an incentive to car makers to make cars efficient immediately, not some token bullsh!t 30 MPG in 10 years or whatever. Do we have leaders who have the balls to DO IT NOW and not wait another 30 years?

Obama certainly is not one.


I may not be an economist, but I do know something about human motivation. Gratification is the motivator. Those who see financial profits as desirable above all else are gratified by profits. Cut the profits or better yet make it unprofitable and you change behavior. The best incentive is to make something else profitable, as in this case, the manufacture of smaller cars and the development of alternative sources of fuel.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:33 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Can't remember it that well - if you're not 40 years old, what's the max age you could have been during carter's term? 10 or 11?

No idea. All I can say is that I remember Carter, and I am of the adolescent age of 39.5


I'm a few months older than Thomas, still shy of 40, and I recall Carter years vividly.


You and Thomas were political boy geniuses. I remember Eisenhower too, but not like I remember Nixon and others that came later. Anyway, you are ignoring my point. Silly you.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There are many many different forms of mental illness. Most are not self inflicted but some are.

http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/mental-health-causes-mental-illness


Most of our problems are self inflicted. That's not the question. How able we are to do otherwise is the real issue. Most of us need help some of the time. Some much more than others. It's an over simplification, I know but I'm hungry and want to go eat dinner.


Not an over simplification at all. I think none of us are 100% self sufficient nor can any of us say that we never need help. Sometimes we cannot solve our problem unless we are willing to ask for or accept available help. I think, however, that we can sometimes fail to see the harmful consequences in the "help" we offer.


Obviously too much help or the wrong kind or help, the kind that encourages unnecessary dependency has harmful consequences. It's knowing what kind of help and how much that matters. But the use of the word choice indicates a judgement about motivation that cannot be known. It would be better to use another word that better describes what you mean.


No, I think most who move in circles applicable to the word 'choice' in this context would define it as I do.

For me 'choice' is power. It is not accepting that anybody is too inferior or incapable or powerless or disadvantaged to escape their circumstances, conditioning, environment, etc. It is not promoting notiions that it is necessary to accept being a ward of the government or whatever along with whatever restrictions the keeper chooses to impose.

I think the best help is helping people to understand that sociopolitical caste systems in this country are an illusion. I think the best help is to help people see the possibilities out there and what choices are available to them and helping them find the courage and desire to make the best decisions to achieve them. And I think too often government programs intended to help are actually cruel deterrents to people making the choice to empower themselves in positive ways.

I am waiting for a President AND Congress who are willing to understand both the short term and long term consequences of what government does and who choose to do good AND do no harm.

Frankly I don't think either Obama or McCain are stellar examples of leaders with a good handle on that.


If you could talk anyone out of behaving self destructively, the world would be a much easier and better place. But if you want an illustration of how poorly rational talking helps, just take a look back at all these political threads. Do you see very many people changing their minds? It's not that people who are hurting themselves don't know all that stuff you just said, it's that they can't make use of that information. A person has to be motivated to change behavior because they want to and talking, or "showing" is experienced as bitching, nagging or preaching. Charlie Brown's "wa wa wa wa." It's just ineffective. My trying to convince you about this point, and you me is, as a matter of fact, a good example of wasted effort.

Bernie reminds me of the Ogden Nash quote:

Quote:
He drinks because she scolds, he thinks;
She thinks she scolds because he drinks;
And neither will admit what's true,
That he's a sot and she's a shrew.

Ogden Nash, The Old Dog Barks Backwards, 1972.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 01:52 pm
Lola wrote:
You and Thomas were political boy geniuses.

Careful with the word "boy genius"! It's just one step away from "turd blossom".

Lola wrote:
Anyway, you are ignoring my point. Silly you.

Right. Of course! Your point. Er ... what was your point again? That Obama is great at one-liners and that this is good for the Democrats? No disagreement at all.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 02:03 pm
Here's another issue concerning "choice" that goes way beyond what some of us have known. The issue of choice is frought with too many variables that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to tie down.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121304603861058495.html?mod=myyahoo_module
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 02:05 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
"Make production of huge gas guzzlers a money losing deal, and we get smaller, more fuel efficient cars and no more resistence on the part of the car manufacturers."

What real leaders would do is provide an incentive to car makers to make cars efficient immediately, not some token bullsh!t 30 MPG in 10 years or whatever. Do we have leaders who have the balls to DO IT NOW and not wait another 30 years?

Obama certainly is not one.


That's funny, he's proposing that sort of thing through tax credits and raising of the fuel economy standards. Detroit screams bloody murder every time someone brings higher fuel efficiencies up, though...

Cycloptichorn


Who cares what Detriot has to say. Obamas plan is not strong enough as I believe the benchmark is 7 years? If you want to sell a car in the US, it must get 40MPG or it can not be sold.

Govt regulates everything except this.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 02:05 pm
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
There are many many different forms of mental illness. Most are not self inflicted but some are.

http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/mental-health-causes-mental-illness


Most of our problems are self inflicted. That's not the question. How able we are to do otherwise is the real issue. Most of us need help some of the time. Some much more than others. It's an over simplification, I know but I'm hungry and want to go eat dinner.


Not an over simplification at all. I think none of us are 100% self sufficient nor can any of us say that we never need help. Sometimes we cannot solve our problem unless we are willing to ask for or accept available help. I think, however, that we can sometimes fail to see the harmful consequences in the "help" we offer.


Obviously too much help or the wrong kind or help, the kind that encourages unnecessary dependency has harmful consequences. It's knowing what kind of help and how much that matters. But the use of the word choice indicates a judgement about motivation that cannot be known. It would be better to use another word that better describes what you mean.


No, I think most who move in circles applicable to the word 'choice' in this context would define it as I do.

For me 'choice' is power. It is not accepting that anybody is too inferior or incapable or powerless or disadvantaged to escape their circumstances, conditioning, environment, etc. It is not promoting notiions that it is necessary to accept being a ward of the government or whatever along with whatever restrictions the keeper chooses to impose.

I think the best help is helping people to understand that sociopolitical caste systems in this country are an illusion. I think the best help is to help people see the possibilities out there and what choices are available to them and helping them find the courage and desire to make the best decisions to achieve them. And I think too often government programs intended to help are actually cruel deterrents to people making the choice to empower themselves in positive ways.

I am waiting for a President AND Congress who are willing to understand both the short term and long term consequences of what government does and who choose to do good AND do no harm.

Frankly I don't think either Obama or McCain are stellar examples of leaders with a good handle on that.


If you could talk anyone out of behaving self destructively, the world would be a much easier and better place. But if you want an illustration of how poorly rational talking helps, just take a look back at all these political threads. Do you see very many people changing their minds? It's not that people who are hurting themselves don't know all that stuff you just said, it's that they can't make use of that information. A person has to be motivated to change behavior because they want to and talking, or "showing" is experienced as bitching, nagging or preaching. Charlie Brown's "wa wa wa wa." It's just ineffective. My trying to convince you about this point is, as a matter of fact, a good example of wasted effort.

Bernie reminds me of the Ogden Nash quote:

Quote:
He drinks because she scolds, he thinks;
She thinks she scolds because he drinks;
And neither will admit what's true,
That he's a sot and she's a shrew.

Ogden Nash, The Old Dog Barks Backwards, 1972.


As we have discussed in other context, I have been blessed to be in a position to see people change from a destructive lifestyle to a positive one. I have been blessed to see people beat what some would declare insurrountable odds to escape from their environment or circumstances. Yes, I have also seen those who for whatever reason did not do so. I once went with an attorney friend to visit a woman in the hospital where she was recovering from injuries intentionally inflicted by her husband. In much pain with broken ribs, nose, jaw, and cheekbone, she finally agreed to file for divorce, file charges, and escape to safety. A few hours later her idiot pastor preached to her about the sanctity of marriage and persuaded her to give him one more chance as he was very sorry about what he had done. The next time I saw her was at her funeral and I believe he is still probably serving a life sentence for her murder. (I have suspect there may be a cell somewhere in hell waiting for that preacher too.) I feel utterly helpless in situations like that, however, and no amount of government programs will stop it either.

I don't want the government making it easier for people to make unproductive or bad choices and/or even encouraging them to do so. And that is why I raise both eyebrows whenever I hear a politician expound on all the millions and billions he plans to spend to make things better for people. I simply don't believe that it will for most.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 02:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
As we have discussed in other context, I have been blessed to be in a position to see people change from a destructive lifestyle to a positive one. I have been blessed to see people beat what some would declare insurrountable odds to escape from their environment or circumstances. Yes, I have also seen those who for whatever reason did not do so. I once went with an attorney friend to visit a woman in the hospital where she was recovering from injuries intentionally inflicted by her husband. In much pain with broken ribs, nose, jaw, and cheekbone, she finally agreed to file for divorce, file charges, and escape to safety. A few hours later her idiot pastor preached to her about the sanctity of marriage and persuaded her to give him one more chance as he was very sorry about what he had done. The next time I saw her was at her funeral and I believe he is still probably serving a life sentence for her murder. (I have suspect there may be a cell somewhere in hell waiting for that preacher too.) I feel utterly helpless in situations like that, however, and no amount of government programs will stop it either.

I don't want the government making it easier for people to make unproductive or bad choices and/or even encouraging them to do so. And that is why I raise both eyebrows whenever I hear a politician expound on all the millions and billions he plans to spend to make things better for people. I simply don't believe that it will for most.


But if non profit charities do it through voluntary donations, it will help?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 03:01 pm
Lola wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
As we have discussed in other context, I have been blessed to be in a position to see people change from a destructive lifestyle to a positive one. I have been blessed to see people beat what some would declare insurrountable odds to escape from their environment or circumstances. Yes, I have also seen those who for whatever reason did not do so. I once went with an attorney friend to visit a woman in the hospital where she was recovering from injuries intentionally inflicted by her husband. In much pain with broken ribs, nose, jaw, and cheekbone, she finally agreed to file for divorce, file charges, and escape to safety. A few hours later her idiot pastor preached to her about the sanctity of marriage and persuaded her to give him one more chance as he was very sorry about what he had done. The next time I saw her was at her funeral and I believe he is still probably serving a life sentence for her murder. (I have suspect there may be a cell somewhere in hell waiting for that preacher too.) I feel utterly helpless in situations like that, however, and no amount of government programs will stop it either.

I don't want the government making it easier for people to make unproductive or bad choices and/or even encouraging them to do so. And that is why I raise both eyebrows whenever I hear a politician expound on all the millions and billions he plans to spend to make things better for people. I simply don't believe that it will for most.


But if non profit charities do it through voluntary donations, it will help?


Not always but the help from the private sector is usually more wisely targeted to the individual situation and is usually not designed as a 'one size fits all' system.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 03:58 pm
Soz: NPR's All Things Considered this afternoon has an interview with Ted Strickland, Ohio's Gov. He was a big Clinton fan but has now moved to Obama.
He has an interesting take on how Obama could win the key state of Ohio.
Go to NPR.org and then to All Things Considered. Find the story and then, over to the right of the headline, is the transcript, which says it will be available "soon'"
We would appreciate your thoughts.
Johnboy
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 04:04 pm
Cool, I'm interested.

Here's the url, for anyone else who's interested and also for me to get back to it:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91360615

It says "transcript pending" right now.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 04:10 pm
"Transcript pending" usually doesn't take long. I use that feature a lot when I am looking for spelling or to confirm what I thought I heard.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 06:38 pm
May I tell you my Jimmy Carter story? No? I am telling it anyway, damn it.
I came back from VN, where I worked as a combat engr, blowing stuff up, to my job as a CPA (I am not making this up) in mid 1970. A big CPA firm. I worked for Gordon R. doing audits of Savings and Loans all over GA. Small S&L's with just one or two offices in rural towns.
We would work 9 or 10 hours a day from M-Th so we could take off at noon or so on Friday to drive back to Atlanta.
There was not a lot to do in these towns. We would try to find a decent restuarant but as often as not we would eat a very forgetable meal at the very forgetable Holiday Inn we were staying at.
Gordon was a large man, a good ole boy from AL. And he wanted to go to the county fairs in the towns we were in. Not to ride the rides or eat the junk food, but just to watch the people. I learned a lot from him about watching people.
Jimmy Carter, that summer, was running against Carl Sanders in the primary for Gov. We ran into him at more than a half a dozen of county fairs, delivering the same speech like politicians do. After each one, Gordon would go up, with me in tow, and greet Carter. We would shake his hand and wish him well. I think Carter grew to recognize us, this loud and big redneck accompanied by this scrawny guy-realjohnboy.
Carter took out the Atlanta lawyer, Sanders, in the primary and then the Repub Hal Suit in November.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 07:54 pm
http://www.lipsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/mccain_vote.jpg

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 09:11 pm
http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/obamaphone.jpg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 09:46 pm
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
"Make production of huge gas guzzlers a money losing deal, and we get smaller, more fuel efficient cars and no more resistence on the part of the car manufacturers."

What real leaders would do is provide an incentive to car makers to make cars efficient immediately, not some token bullsh!t 30 MPG in 10 years or whatever. Do we have leaders who have the balls to DO IT NOW and not wait another 30 years?

Obama certainly is not one.


That's funny, he's proposing that sort of thing through tax credits and raising of the fuel economy standards. Detroit screams bloody murder every time someone brings higher fuel efficiencies up, though...

Cycloptichorn


Who cares what Detriot has to say. Obamas plan is not strong enough as I believe the benchmark is 7 years? If you want to sell a car in the US, it must get 40MPG or it can not be sold.

Govt regulates everything except this.

woiyo, what has happened to your brain lately? I thought you were sensible?

What if I live 1 mile from work, and want to buy a truck or suv that gets 15 or 20 mpg because I have 5 kids to take to baseball games, or because I use my vehicle to haul lumber to a construction job, or because of a thousand reasons? I may not burn as much fuel than some joker that drives a roller skate 50 miles to work. What right does the government have to tell Detroit what they can sell me?

The point is that the free market is a much better arbitor of what is the most efficient. If gasoline stays at $4.00 per gallon or higher, you can bet that used car lots will stay full of gas guzzlers and the highways will become increasingly traveled by a more efficient fleet of vehicles, however, if you have government mandate every vehicle has to get 40 mpg, you will end up with one huge bureaucratic disaster. First of all, many people need vehicles to haul and tow cargo, and there is no current technology to build vehicles that can do some kinds of jobs and get 40 mpg, so you end up with a situation of exemptions or special cases, and then how do you administer that?

You need to rethink what you said. You should not mandate a minimum mpg that high any more than you should mandate how far people can live from work, or how many miles they can drive per year, or how big of a house people can live in, or how much food they should eat, or the list is endless.
0 Replies
 
 

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