snood
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:27 pm
Yeah, and (I hope its not pedestrian or antisocial to mention, but)everyone isn't crazy about the idea of a black man in the oval office.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:52 pm
That's what I meant by hoping that 1968 was 'before'. Not that RFK's assassination was tied to his support of the civil rights movement but it certainly is part of the underlying stress for Obama.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:15 pm
Thomas wrote:
How did Cherie Blair handle this? If there was trouble, I don't remember reading about it.

Yep. And Hillary Clinton wasnt exactly the wify type either, for that matter, and they had kids.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:26 pm
JPB wrote:
Secret Service protection has been provided to all presidential candidates since Kennedy's assassination and there have certainly been many candidates who have faced safety concerns since 1968. I think the parallel might be coming from the on-going comparisons to his dynamic appeal as, "the first democratic candidate since Kennedy...." that brings the safety issue into the forefront.


Yes on the comparisons. The youth, the energy, the universal appeal... the brain power, dare I say.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:28 pm
Robert Kennedy was quoted as saying, "There are bullets between me and the White House." Obama could possibly targeted the same way.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:41 pm
Ok, I'm going to hope I'm just being paranoid on that bit and not let it get in the way of my dream visions of a United States with an intelligent, thoughtful president who actually gives a **** about the rest of the world and makes us all look a bit smarter than we actually are.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:47 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Robert Kennedy was quoted as saying, "There are bullets between me and the White House." Obama could possibly targeted the same way.

I don't see what's unique to Obama here. They almost killed Ronald Reagan, a conservative. On the other hand, nobody seriously attempted to murder Clinton, a Democrat as brainy and charismatic as Kennedy and Obama. So why would Obama lose more sleep than other candidates over his personal security? More than, say, Hillary Clinton or Rudy Giuliani?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:49 pm
Oh, I freely admit there's no logic to it. It's just one of those things.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:55 pm
Clinton was the best weapon the Republicans had against Democrats. They hated him, but, he did more to further the conservative agenda in the US than many powerful Republicans did. It always infuriated the opposition that Clinton usurped their causes. But, what he did was undercut Democrats and make his party support more conservative causes. Why murder the goose that laid the golden egg?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:56 pm
Because he's black, would be my answer (edit: to Thomas). Not that I believe the chance would be very big, but I do think that puts him in a different ballpark of hypothetic possibility than Hillary, let alone Giuliani.

There's still determined racists out there who'd consider it an act of patriotic duty to prevent the USA from having a black President, and my take would be that this is a sentiment that sits deeper, and is more able to spur someone to murder, than regular partisan passion, however extreme, could be.

A black president, a Jewish president - that's stuff that triggers something both darker and deeper than just a very liberal or very conservative President.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 05:59 pm
I think, to continue that thought, it does have something to do with "otherness". Kennedy was the first catholic president. Not saying that's why he was killed, just, I don't know.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 06:06 pm
Oh, and what Edgar said, absolutely. Bill Clinton was no dashing liberal. He campaigned as a centrist Democrat, and governed as one. All he offered was, in the words of Steve Earle, "four more years / of things not getting worse". He posed no real threat.

What drove Republicans crazy about Clinton was not any great new liberal projects he was establishing - because there were none. No New Deal, no Great Society. Just Republican-style welfare reform. What drove Republicans to distraction about Bill was merely his power-political slippery smoothness, his tactical agility, which always again kept him from their hands, even when they think they finally had him cornered. That can be maddening, personally, and Bill's loose morals sure added florid insult to injury. But reason to kill? Nah.

A dashing young liberal who could - and might - really change the country though - thats different matter. And then black as well - wholly different layer of volatility.

(Anyone remember that BBC series from the 80s, A Very British Coup?)

Mind you, I'm not predicting he'd necessarily be shot at or anything - but I do get Freeduck's foreboding - I can imagine it. Whereas I cant imagine anyone going out to murder Giuliani - except for Islamist Jihadists obviously, but they'd be gunning for any US President.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 06:17 pm
nimh wrote:
What drove Republicans crazy about Clinton was not any great new liberal projects he was establishing - because there were none. No New Deal, no Great Society.

What about the gays-in-the-military project, or his attempt at health care reform? The income tax hike for the top brackets? The massive expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit? Clinton wasn't overly moderate during his first two years. This only changed in 1994, when a Republican Congress left him no choice but to shift to the right.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 06:29 pm
Thomas wrote:
What about the gays-in-the-military project, or his attempt at health care reform?

What about them? A measure to allow a minority group into one specific profession - and even that only on a wishy-washy "dont ask dont tell" basis - you're comparing that with something like the New Deal, which completely overhauled the economic and conceptual framework of the country?

And you're right to word the second half like that - "his attempt at health care reform" - overwhelmingly abortive as it was. If anything it serves as more proof that unlike FDR, or even LBJ, Clinton was easy enough to check and control when it came to actual policy substance, rather than his personal acrobatics.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 06:41 pm
As for this one:

Thomas wrote:
The income tax hike for the top brackets?

I recommend this fascinating table, I've brought it here a few times already. Because your example - the level of the top tax bracket - actually serves as the perfect example of just how little of a threat Clinton was, in historical context, to conservative orthodoxy.

Under Reagan, the top rate on regular income dropped from 70%/50% to 28%/33%.

Under Clinton, it inched back to 39.6%/40.8%.

Basically, in eight years, he hiked it back up just a third or a quarter or so of the length that Reagan had dropped it.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 08:43 pm
nimh wrote:
Because he's black, would be my answer (edit: to Thomas). Not that I believe the chance would be very big, but I do think that puts him in a different ballpark of hypothetic possibility than Hillary, let alone Giuliani.

There's still determined racists out there who'd consider it an act of patriotic duty to prevent the USA from having a black President, and my take would be that this is a sentiment that sits deeper, and is more able to spur someone to murder, than regular partisan passion, however extreme, could be.

A black president, a Jewish president - that's stuff that triggers something both darker and deeper than just a very liberal or very conservative President.


This seems so obvious to me. But - different paradigms and perspectives, I guess.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 21 Oct, 2006 12:09 am
Our country once thought a Catholic would never have a chance, but guess what?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 21 Oct, 2006 02:00 am
nimh wrote:
If anything it serves as more proof that unlike FDR, or even LBJ, Clinton was easy enough to check and control when it came to actual policy substance, rather than his personal acrobatics.

Don't-ask-don't-tell was the compromise that came out of it, not what Clinton proposed. His health care reform proposed pretty much the same universal health care that Obama is now campaigning to enact. True, Clinton could not push either of those measures through Congress. But this says nothing about the proposal's potential to stir up conflict, and make some idiot shoot at him.

Anyway, the context of this sub-thread was not a Freudian pissing contest of the form "my favorite Democrat was a bigger reformer than yours." It was personal security. Roosevelt, Johnson and Clinton never got shot at. Neither did Bush II, who pushed changes upon America that were as drastic as Johnson's. The people who got shot at were the Kennedy brothers and Ronald Reagan. When I look at all these, I see absolutely no correlation at all between the boldness of reforms and the likelyhood to get shot at.

A look at the assassins' motives adds no clarity at all: John F. Kennedy's assasin was Lee Harvey Oswald, and nobody knows what motivated him. Robert Kennedy was murdered by Shiran B. Shiran, who was a) a Palestinian upset by RFK's support for Israel and b) possibly mentally ill. John Hnkley, the guy who shot at Ronald Reagan, was a stalker with an obsession for Jodie Foster. He had watched Taxi Driver too much and wanted to assassinate someone just as Robert de Niro did in this film. And just as an aside, Germany in the last 20 years saw assassination attempts on the minister of the interior and the opposition leader -- both by mentally deranged people.

Assassins of politicians aren't rational activists with guns. I don't think your political ideology has any influence on whether some sicko may shoot you.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 21 Oct, 2006 06:30 am
Thomas wrote:
Assassins of politicians aren't rational activists with guns. I don't think your political ideology has any influence on whether some sicko may shoot you.

Coming from Holland, where in recent years Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were assassinated, I can not possibly agree with that conclusion.

snood wrote:
This seems so obvious to me. But - different paradigms and perspectives, I guess.

I suppose so..
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 21 Oct, 2006 06:52 am
"Obama is a hot ticket online" headlines the Chicago Tribune today on page 3

http://i11.tinypic.com/4gqrfgi.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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