Obama '08?

So far the 2008 election process has repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of confounding the experts - of both parties. There's lots of time left in the process , and I expect this pattern of unpredictability may continue, at least to some extent. It appears to be a feature of the current public mood.

I'll concede that a Republican victory is certainly not indicated by the external facts - an unpopular two-term Republican incumbent; an unpopular war; an economic downturn; etc. However, the available evidence suggests this is still a season for surprises, and expectations for Republicans are still far better than would normally be indicated by the above facts.

Some of this is a result of Democrat follies. The Democrat leadership in the Congress has certainly failed to raise public expectations of their potential for governance. The Democrat candidates have not risen above the historical norms in terms of their polarizing potential. (Obama inspired a fairly transcendent appeal in the early stages of the campaign, but that appears to be eroding.)

All of this leaves McCain with some real potential. Will he realize it? I'm not sure, It will be an uphill go and I'm a bit skeptical of his ability to seize and hold the initiative in the final stages of the race. However, there is still time for more Democrat errors.

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nimh; at this point I am just so disgusted in general with this whole democratic primary that I am finding it hard to summon up any interest. But you would think that Americans after falling for the swift boats and anti-gay marriage stuff in 2004 would see all this stuff being slung at Obama for the crap it is. If we do not and elect either Hillary or McCain on those bull crap issues rather than policies; then we deserve what we get just like we deserved four more years of George Bush for re-electing him back in 2004 and then complaining about it afterwards. If people simply disagree with Obama's policies (or would be policies) that is one thing; but to base their decisions on those issues is just more swift boating.

If Obama gets picked for the democratic ticket then he can just keep answering these questions the same way he is now. So far not that many people care and that is polls conducted nationwide which say it. So why will they suddenly care after he is picked for the democratic ticket? More than likely if these loud mouthed conservative pundits keep yacking about it people will get sick of hearing about it; you would think so at any rate.

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revel wrote:

nimh; at this point I am just so disgusted in general with this whole democratic primary that I am finding it hard to summon up any interest. But you would think that Americans after falling for the swift boats and anti-gay marriage stuff in 2004 would see all this stuff being slung at Obama for the crap it is. ....

As long as anyone, anyone, is running for president, they will be examined. They deserve it. Some of you here act as though Obama should be too holy to be criticized. Sorry, it aint going to happen. And as long as his former pastor is running around spewing more nonsense, as he continues to do, it will keep the fires burning. And even nice old John McCain has to admit some of the pastor's statements are mighty bizarre. If Obama would simply throw Wright overboard like he did his grandmother, all of this would be over with, but until that happens, I think he will have alot more explainin to do. Either that, or he can just quit debating and talking to any of the press he doesn't like, which he may be close to doing.

The latest statements of Wright, he compares himself to Jesus, he is being crucified. And people are just taking his old statements out of context, he really didn't mean all that stuff. Also, he says things as a pastor, and Obama says things as a politician. Interpretation, Obama is just a politician and that is why he can't be totally frank about things, or say really what he may believe, or agree with Wright publically as a politician, even though he may agree privately.

Democrats, do you actually agree with this guy and his buddy, Obama, or is this all a joke? I keep hoping I will wake up from a dream and none of this is true.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/27/wright-discusses-public-crucifixion-at-sunday-services/

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okie wrote:

Democrats, do you actually agree with this guy and his buddy, Obama

No, most of us dont agree with Wright - at least not with the stuff that's on those "greatest hits" videos and the like - but then neither does Obama. So your point is?

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nimh wrote:

... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

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The black race was brought over here for slavery that ended about 140 Years ago.

Then Segregation that ended 58 years ago.

Then crack cocaine epidemic hit black America in the 80's. The impact of the crack cocaine epidemic will never be fully comprehended by the rest of America. The crack came from the American government to finance wars in south America.

Slavery 1618-1865

Segregation 1870-1950

Crack cocaine 1980- current

Of course they're people like Wright. He's human ain't he. He feels for the history of his own race. The sad part about what Wright said that those things happened.

Obama said that these are the racist scars that we as a country soon must look at together, a REAL discussion on racism not a politically correct one.

"God damn America" What did Wright mean and feel? (or did you even watch the whole thing) Have you ever damned your parents? America is a great duality.

THE REPUBLICANS PROPAGATE FEAR AND MISUNDERSTANDING.

And in the midths destroy the country.

Obama said;

"But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality. "

People like Okie and the Republicans want to keep this mistake alive and well. Why? So they can use fear, nationalism and our stupidity the rape the country.

The cost of the war is at 515,000,000,000. We were attacked by Arabs on 9/11. Wheres The Vice presidents Halliburton at now THEY MOVED TO A ARAB COUNTRY! AND THEY TOOK YOUR TAX MONEY WITH THEM while your kids get their arms and legs blown off in a dessert far, FAR away from home

Who should you really be afraid of for you and your kids?

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Ticomaya wrote:

nimh wrote:
... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

Any evidence to support your beliefs, counselor?

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snood wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
nimh wrote:
... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

Any evidence to support your beliefs, counselor?

Do you have any evidence to support your belief that he doesn't?

I find it hard to believe that he sat in that church for 20 years, asked Rev. Wright to perform his wedding ceremony, sit on his advisory team, and holds him in such esteem as his personal spiritual advisor, and now wants to cherry pick what he agrees with him about when the issue is raised in his campaign. I don't buy it, and I don't need to see any evidence to support my belief, just as you apparently don't need any evidence to support your own.

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Ticomaya wrote:

snood wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
nimh wrote:
... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

Any evidence to support your beliefs, counselor?

Do you have any evidence to support your belief that he doesn't?

I find it hard to believe that he sat in that church for 20 years, asked Rev. Wright to perform his wedding ceremony, sit on his advisory team, and holds him in such esteem as his personal spiritual advisor, and now wants to cherry pick what he agrees with him about when the issue is raised in his campaign. I don't buy it, and I don't need to see any evidence to support my belief, just as you apparently don't need any evidence to support your own.

Well, not exactly. I have seen that his travel records prove his claim that he simply didn't attend church on the days that those scrupulously cherry picked excerpts that we've seen ad nauseum occured. My evidence for not believing that he doesn't feel the same kind of agrieved antipathy that Reverend Wright expressed in those scrupulously cherry-picked and played ad nauseum excerpts is the dozens of speeches, two books, and countless hours of appearances I've seen of Obama's where he himself never expressed or gave any indication that he shared those sentiments.

You could show yourself to be an honest and honerable man to me tico if you would just view the interview with Moyers - look at and listen to the actual human being Reverend Wright just once, instead of forming your opinion from those politically motivated snips.

I defy you to find anything but a thoughtful, good man who has worked for over 30 years for the best interests of his community and his country.

Can you do that? Can you show yourself to be someone who is actually interested in the truth of a matter and not just the spin that fits your ideology, and watch that whole interview?

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snood wrote:

You could show yourself to be an honest and honerable man to me tico if you would just view the interview with Moyers - look at and listen to the actual human being Reverend Wright just once, instead of forming your opinion from those politically motivated snips.

I fully intend to. But not because I care a whit whether you find me to be an honest or honorable person.

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okie wrote:

revel wrote:
nimh; at this point I am just so disgusted in general with this whole democratic primary that I am finding it hard to summon up any interest. But you would think that Americans after falling for the swift boats and anti-gay marriage stuff in 2004 would see all this stuff being slung at Obama for the crap it is. ....

As long as anyone, anyone, is running for president, they will be examined. They deserve it. Some of you here act as though Obama should be too holy to be criticized. Sorry, it aint going to happen. And as long as his former pastor is running around spewing more nonsense, as he continues to do, it will keep the fires burning. And even nice old John McCain has to admit some of the pastor's statements are mighty bizarre. If Obama would simply throw Wright overboard like he did his grandmother, all of this would be over with, but until that happens, I think he will have alot more explainin to do. Either that, or he can just quit debating and talking to any of the press he doesn't like, which he may be close to doing.

The latest statements of Wright, he compares himself to Jesus, he is being crucified. And people are just taking his old statements out of context, he really didn't mean all that stuff. Also, he says things as a pastor, and Obama says things as a politician. Interpretation, Obama is just a politician and that is why he can't be totally frank about things, or say really what he may believe, or agree with Wright publically as a politician, even though he may agree privately.

Democrats, do you actually agree with this guy and his buddy, Obama, or is this all a joke? I keep hoping I will wake up from a dream and none of this is true.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/27/wright-discusses-public-crucifixio
n-at-sunday-services/

Okie:
I agree, but to a certain extent. I don't believe in "fabricating or swift-boating" of anyone, of any party. If we could look past party affiliation, it's one thing, but if a candidate has a decided record of voting on issues as McCain has, as Hillary has, or Obama, who is virtually an unknown, they should be examined. I don't abide "making up" something on a candidate to discredit an otherwise decent person, though.

The Jerimiah Wright crucifixion, is just that. Play the whole sermon instead of taking one line from one sermon and editing it with a line from another, giving the appearance of something else, when it is a downright lie! Let's call it what it is! You have Hillary running around doing to Obama what the republicans are known for; running someone into the ground! It's just like the press when they think Martin Luther King's reputation is based on one speech, when Blacks know otherwise! He also gave a famous speech against the Viet-Nam War, which the mainstream media NEVER plays! He sounds too much like Jeremiah Wright!

So go on and crucify whoever you wish. In the end, you'll get 8 more years of Bush, because that's what you'll get; someone who doesn't have your best interest. McCain flies around in his rich wife's jet, for almost nothing, because he can! He voted against civil rights but knows he'll lose because Blacks overwhelmingly vote Democrat and why not? Hillary has split the Democratic Party in two with her race-baiting remarks, the belittlling of an unknown, who she CAN'T beat, unless she does what she's doing! Talk to me in December, after the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot, as usual! They can kiss my fat A$$, for all I care! Twisted Evil

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snood wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
snood wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
nimh wrote:
... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

Any evidence to support your beliefs, counselor?

Do you have any evidence to support your belief that he doesn't?

I find it hard to believe that he sat in that church for 20 years, asked Rev. Wright to perform his wedding ceremony, sit on his advisory team, and holds him in such esteem as his personal spiritual advisor, and now wants to cherry pick what he agrees with him about when the issue is raised in his campaign. I don't buy it, and I don't need to see any evidence to support my belief, just as you apparently don't need any evidence to support your own.

Well, not exactly. I have seen that his travel records prove his claim that he simply didn't attend church on the days that those scrupulously cherry picked excerpts that we've seen ad nauseum occured. My evidence for not believing that he doesn't feel the same kind of agrieved antipathy that Reverend Wright expressed in those scrupulously cherry-picked and played ad nauseum excerpts is the dozens of speeches, two books, and countless hours of appearances I've seen of Obama's where he himself never expressed or gave any indication that he shared those sentiments.

You could show yourself to be an honest and honerable man to me tico if you would just view the interview with Moyers - look at and listen to the actual human being Reverend Wright just once, instead of forming your opinion from those politically motivated snips.

I defy you to find anything but a thoughtful, good man who has worked for over 30 years for the best interests of his community and his country.

Can you do that? Can you show yourself to be someone who is actually interested in the truth of a matter and not just the spin that fits your ideology, and watch that whole interview?

People like Tico, WANT to believe what was aired, rather than the truth!
The TRUTH, would force people like him, to look in the mirror at the hate and predjudice, they still harbor against Blacks and other minorities, they see as a threat to their fear of loss of "entitlement"! Cool

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Ticomaya wrote:

snood wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
nimh wrote:
... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

Any evidence to support your beliefs, counselor?

Do you have any evidence to support your belief that he doesn't?

I find it hard to believe that he sat in that church for 20 years, asked Rev. Wright to perform his wedding ceremony, sit on his advisory team, and holds him in such esteem as his personal spiritual advisor, and now wants to cherry pick what he agrees with him about when the issue is raised in his campaign. I don't buy it, and I don't need to see any evidence to support my belief, just as you apparently don't need any evidence to support your own.

I was out late, and need to be up in the morning, so briefly; nonsense Tico. I'll use for example our mutual relationship of respect, yours and mine. Or George's and mine... or Finn's and mine. We most certainly don't agree here, or on more than a few subjects, but that has never, nor will it ever be a barrier against mutual respect. I'm not a religious man, but I've plenty of friends that are... have dated plenty of women who were... and to the extent I've heard talk about politics showing up in church; it seems I've heard more than a little disagreement with various preacher's politics. However; since politics and religious beliefs are separate things, in my experience, the faithful have voiced their disagreement with me, while not one of them ever confronted the preacher (that I know of). Then again; none of my friends (to my knowledge) were so bent on their preachers to believe he was capable of no wrong. Mostly I heard things like "I wish he wouldn't bring his politics to church". I'd wager every one of them were there for reasons other than to hear their preacher's politics. I'd wager Obama was too.

Ps. Nice last post Revel. (I don't recall saying that before). Well done.

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Ticomaya wrote:

snood wrote:
You could show yourself to be an honest and honerable man to me tico if you would just view the interview with Moyers - look at and listen to the actual human being Reverend Wright just once, instead of forming your opinion from those politically motivated snips.

I fully intend to. But not because I care a whit whether you find me to be an honest or honorable person.

Well, thanks for clearing up that inportant little point. Let us hear what you think after watching the interview.

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This sure sounds like paranoia on the part of the dailykos or the Obama campaign...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/28/11221/0150/789/504662

Quote:

This is the largely untold story of how the Harper government, with the help of a television reporter, sought to sabotage the candidacy of Barack Obama. Many of the facts of this story are on the record, in pieces, from disparate sources. What is untold is how those pieces fit together into a coherent narrative. And it is only with this narrative that the severity, and maliciousness of this incident is revealed.

Read the rest of the story, it would be funny if it wasnt so sad.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
snood wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
nimh wrote:
... but then neither does Obama ...

I find that hard to believe.

Any evidence to support your beliefs, counselor?

Do you have any evidence to support your belief that he doesn't?

I find it hard to believe that he sat in that church for 20 years, asked Rev. Wright to perform his wedding ceremony, sit on his advisory team, and holds him in such esteem as his personal spiritual advisor, and now wants to cherry pick what he agrees with him about when the issue is raised in his campaign. I don't buy it, and I don't need to see any evidence to support my belief, just as you apparently don't need any evidence to support your own.
I was out late, and need to be up in the morning, so briefly; nonsense Tico. I'll use for example our mutual relationship of respect, yours and mine. Or George's and mine... or Finn's and mine. We most certainly don't agree here, or on more than a few subjects, but that has never, nor will it ever be a barrier against mutual respect. I'm not a religious man, but I've plenty of friends that are... have dated plenty of women who were... and to the extent I've heard talk about politics showing up in church; it seems I've heard more than a little disagreement with various preacher's politics. However; since politics and religious beliefs are separate things, in my experience, the faithful have voiced their disagreement with me, while not one of them ever confronted the preacher (that I know of). Then again; none of my friends (to my knowledge) were so bent on their preachers to believe he was capable of no wrong. Mostly I heard things like "I wish he wouldn't bring his politics to church". I'd wager every one of them were there for reasons other than to hear their preacher's politics. I'd wager Obama was too.

Ps. Nice last post Revel. (I don't recall saying that before). Well done.

Would you have respect for me if I spouted off the nonsense uttered by Rev. Wright?

We can all get on record saying what our guesses are about Obama's thoughts about his preacher's beliefs. But what we do know -- besides Obama's recent avow that he finds them to be objectionable -- is that he took no known action whatsoever in response to the multiple objectionable comments made by Jeremiah Wright over the years. I personally have left a church over comments made by my pastor, so I don't place much stock in the thought that he bifurcated the religious preaching from the political preaching. Wright has been shown to be a racist -- and I doubt his interview with Moyers will rehabilitate that image, but how nice of the media to give him that opportunity. I doubt very much that would have been extended had the shoe been on the foot of, say, a Republican candidate. And I also very seriously doubt the rush to explain away the hatred and racist views of Rev. Wright as being out of context and "cherry picked" would have been nearly as strong had Wright been a white man, speaking racist comments about blacks. In any case, I have a hard time believing Obama on this issue ...

But I would be interested to know if any of the Obama supporters have any evidence to support their own beliefs regarding this issue, other than what you feel in your heart, or your desires to believe your candidate.

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"In an interview with ABC News Wednesday afternoon, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., called for the firing of talk radio host Don Imus. Obama said he would never again appear on Imus' show, which is broadcast on CBS Radio and MSNBC television.

"I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus," Obama told ABC News, "but I would also say that there's nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude."

Obama said he appeared once on Imus' show two years ago, and "I have no intention of returning."

How come he did not "fire" his pastor?

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Because only the white man can be racist. Duh.

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I saw the Moyers inverview twice.

In my opinion, it appeared to be a lot of church-speak briefly touching on and quickly passing over a couple of the more widely publicized controversial issues and not touching on most. (Example: Nary a word about the US of AKKK line nor the one where the US government invented AIDS to kill black people, etc.) Moyers, a member of Jeremiah Wright's denomination, and Wright were eager to show Wright as the victim and to show him as a calm, thoughtful, spiritual person 180 degrees from the man shouting anti-American and anti-white rhetoric from the pulpit.

The only good sound bite it produced was the line that Obama says what he has to say as a politician and Wright says what he has to say as a pastor.

Those already in love with Obama or leaning that way were probably soothed and affirmed. I doubt it was persuasive to many others.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Those already in love with Obama or leaning that way were probably soothed and affirmed. I doubt it was persuasive to many others.

And those who've got their minds made up against him come hell or high water are probably digging in and clinging to their beliefs as well.

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