Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 20 Apr, 2008 07:01 pm
The only way that somebody making $200k/year pays a lower percentage of taxes over all than I do--I sure make nowhere CLOSE to $200k a year-- is by taking advantage of tax shelters and other legal loopholes that are just as available to me as they are to anybody else. It isn't anybody else's fault if I don't qualify for them.

But if somebody making $200k a year pays a 10% tax he pays $20,000 in taxes. If somebody making $50,000 a year pays a 10% tax he pays $5,000. The guy making the bigger income has a whole lot left over, yes, but he did pay 4 times as much in taxes as the lower income guy.

And the guy makin $10k is going to pay nothing at all.

You try to make that $200/k a year guy pay a higher percentage, and he's just going to shelter more income and utilize more tax loopholes which means he won't be spending as much on salaries or benefits or venture capital or philanthropy or putting his money in the bank so others can borrow what they need for what they need to do.

You simply cannot punish the rich for their success without hurting the poor. That is a principle that some politicians never quite seem to be able to grasp however.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 20 Apr, 2008 07:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The only way that somebody making $200k/year pays a lower percentage of taxes over all than I do--I sure make nowhere CLOSE to $200k a year-- is by taking advantage of tax shelters and other legal loopholes that are just as available to me as they are to anybody else. It isn't anybody else's fault if I don't qualify for them.

But if somebody making $200k a year pays a 10% tax he pays $20,000 in taxes. If somebody making $50,000 a year pays a 10% tax he pays $5,000. The guy making the bigger income has a whole lot left over, yes, but he did pay 4 times as much in taxes as the lower income guy.

And the guy makin $10k is going to pay nothing at all.

You try to make that $200/k a year guy pay a higher percentage, and he's just going to shelter more income and utilize more tax loopholes which means he won't be spending as much on salaries or benefits or venture capital or philanthropy or putting his money in the bank so others can borrow what they need for what they need to do.

You simply cannot punish the rich for their success without hurting the poor. That is a principle that some politicians never quite seem to be able to grasp however.



One could argue Foxy that the rich, even that guy making 200k a year, benefit to a greater degree from government, therefore should pay more taxes.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 20 Apr, 2008 07:56 pm
maporsche wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
The only way that somebody making $200k/year pays a lower percentage of taxes over all than I do--I sure make nowhere CLOSE to $200k a year-- is by taking advantage of tax shelters and other legal loopholes that are just as available to me as they are to anybody else. It isn't anybody else's fault if I don't qualify for them.

But if somebody making $200k a year pays a 10% tax he pays $20,000 in taxes. If somebody making $50,000 a year pays a 10% tax he pays $5,000. The guy making the bigger income has a whole lot left over, yes, but he did pay 4 times as much in taxes as the lower income guy.

And the guy makin $10k is going to pay nothing at all.

You try to make that $200/k a year guy pay a higher percentage, and he's just going to shelter more income and utilize more tax loopholes which means he won't be spending as much on salaries or benefits or venture capital or philanthropy or putting his money in the bank so others can borrow what they need for what they need to do.

You simply cannot punish the rich for their success without hurting the poor. That is a principle that some politicians never quite seem to be able to grasp however.



One could argue Foxy that the rich, even that guy making 200k a year, benefit to a greater degree from government, therefore should pay more taxes.


Sure you can argue that. But it simply makes no sense that people who achieve success should be punished for that success by their govenrment. That old axiom "No poor man ever gave me a job" may be tired and cliched but it is nevertheless pretty much 100% the truth.

Also poor people don't give a new cancer wing to a hospital or fund a new wing for a library or museum. And poor people don't provide venture capital for entrepenoural enterprises or important R&D that keep us moving forward or endowments for scholarship funds. Less affluent people are joining the investor's class in their 401Ks, Simple IRAs, etc. all the time now, but the success of their investment is largely dependent on the large investments of wealthier Americans. Without the surplus cash of the more affluent stored in banks and savings and loans, the dream of home ownership or other big ticket goals would be out of reach of most.

Every dollar confiscated in taxes removes a dollar from all that. There is another old axiom that is still as true today as it ever was: "No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity." The goverment blesses the rich and poor alike by creating a healthy, thriving, growing economy. Try to soak the rich based on their prosperity, and it is a near certainty that you will create more poor.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 03:04 am
Here's Nora Ephron on a blog saying white men will decide everything:

Here's another thing I don't like about this primary: now that there are only two Democratic candidates, it's suddenly horribly absolutely crystal-clear that this is an election about gender and race. This may have always been true, but weeks ago it wasn't so obvious -- once upon a time there were eight candidates, and although six of them withered away, their presence in the campaign managed to obscure things. Even around the time of Ohio, when there were primarily three candidates, the outlines were murky, because Edwards was still in there, picking up votes from all sectors.

But now there are two and we're facing Pennsylvania and whom are we kidding? This is an election about whether the people of Pennsylvania hate blacks more than they hate women. And when I say people, I don't mean people, I mean white men. How ironic is this? After all this time, after all these stupid articles about how powerless white men are and how they can't even get into college because of overachieving women and affirmative action and mean lady teachers who expected them to sit still in the third grade even though they were all suffering from terminal attention deficit disorder -- after all this, they turn out (surprise!) to have all the power. (As they always did, by the way; I hope you didn't believe any of those articles.)

To put it bluntly, the next president will be elected by them: the outcome of Tuesday's primary will depend on whether they go for Hillary or Obama, and the outcome of the general election will depend on whether enough of them vote for McCain. A lot of them will: white men cannot be relied on, as all of us know who have spent a lifetime dating them. And McCain is a compelling candidate, particularly because of the Torture Thing. As for the Democratic hope that McCain's temper will be a problem, don't bet on it. A lot of white men have terrible tempers, and what's more, they think it's normal.

If Hillary pulls it out in Pennsylvania, and she could, and if she follows it up in Indiana, she can make a credible case that she deserves to be the candidate; these last primaries will show which of the two Democratic candidates is better at overcoming the bias of a vast chunk of the population that has never in its history had to vote for anyone but a candidate who could have been their father or their brother or their son, and who has never had to think of the president of the United States as anyone other than someone they might have been had circumstances been just slightly different.

Hillary's case is not an attractive one, because what she'll essentially be saying (and has been saying, although very carefully) is that she can attract more racist white male voters than Obama can. Nonetheless, and as I said, she has a case.

I spent the weekend listening to one commentator after another saying that Obama has it locked up, it's a done deal. I dunno. Hillary is the true whack-a-mole and if she survives on Tuesday, it will be a whole new ballgame. And it will be all because of white men. Plus ca change.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 05:48 am
Since women comprise a little over 50% of the populace, Nora's article is nonsense.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 06:25 am
Wow, another race related post from Snood........
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 06:29 am
I just plain don't understand how people expect a government to run itself if there is no money in it. Conversely it is these same people chanting war all the time. I guess they expect the money for that to fall from the sky like manna. I guess they expect money for domestic spending to fall from the sky or paying for the military, schools, police officers, emergency responders, homeland security, bridges and highways and roads...

It probably is more fair for a flat tax to be used; but it would then make the economy more poor because the middle class and those making little money but not on welfare would not have enough money to spread it around in the economy. Yet we got to get the money to run the nation from somewhere or run the risk of having our nation be degraded as it seems to be heading.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 07:53 am
revel wrote:
I just plain don't understand how people expect a government to run itself if there is no money in it. Conversely it is these same people chanting war all the time. I guess they expect the money for that to fall from the sky like manna. I guess they expect money for domestic spending to fall from the sky or paying for the military, schools, police officers, emergency responders, homeland security, bridges and highways and roads...

It probably is more fair for a flat tax to be used; but it would then make the economy more poor because the middle class and those making little money but not on welfare would not have enough money to spread it around in the economy. Yet we got to get the money to run the nation from somewhere or run the risk of having our nation be degraded as it seems to be heading.


Many of the things you mention: schools, police officers, emergency responders, most bridges highways and roads, etc ARE NOT the responsibility of the FEDERAL government.

The federal government has relatively few responsibilities delegated to it under the Constitution.

The rest of these are the responsibility of the cities, the counties, the states, etc

Federal taxation needs to be decreased in order to free up money for local govt entities to perform their functions.

Presidential candidates who promise more police officers, more teachers (or higher pay for teachers), etc are WAY overstepping the bounds of their authority.

See, we don't have 'a government' that must operate.

We have many.

Separation of powers, and delegation of tasks to different levels of authority is part of the genius of the American system.

We don't want cities to be a sub-department of the federal government. Same thing with states and counties.

As long as we let presidential candidates get away with making themselves look good by talking about schools, infrastructure and police, then we are sinking our own boat.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 08:03 am
So when you all talk about taxes as though it was a curse word you only mean federal taxes but is ok to tax you to death in state taxes?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 08:15 am
revel wrote:
So when you all talk about taxes as though it was a curse word you only mean federal taxes but is ok to tax you to death in state taxes?


Laughing

Good one.

I guess for me it means that it is far easier to keep govt spending at ALL levels at a reasonable level if each govt entity is staying within its specified realm of jurisdiction.

And spending isn't the only issue.

How 'bout focus?

The President can focus on more national security issues if he doesn't have to micromanage education policy , which is supposed to be a local function.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 08:26 am
real life wrote:
I guess for me it means that it is far easier to keep govt spending at ALL levels at a reasonable level if each govt entity is staying within its specified realm of jurisdiction.


I see . . . you mean the way Clinton did it, when he produced a surplus--as opposed to the Shrub, who has run up the national debt to historically high levels.

Quote:
And spending isn't the only issue.

How 'bout focus?

The President can focus on more national security issues if he doesn't have to micromanage education policy, which is supposed to be a local function.


Oh, i completely agree--that "No Child Left Behind" crapola of the Shrub's is a disaster. Talk about unfunded Federal initiatives.

Yeah, i can see the need to get a competent Democrat in the White House.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 09:04 am
real life wrote:
Separation of powers, and delegation of tasks to different levels of authority is part of the genius of the American system.

We don't want cities to be a sub-department of the federal government. Same thing with states and counties.

As long as we let presidential candidates get away with making themselves look good by talking about schools, infrastructure and police, then we are sinking our own boat.


Good point, well stated.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 09:14 am
Yes, it has never made any sense to me for the federal government to collect huge amounts of taxes, siphon off a third or more to fund the federal bureaucracy, and then dole the rest out to the states as if big brother is actually funding the schools, police, infrastructure, etc. Why not leave the money with the people in the first place and let the states and cities levy whatever taxes they need to provide essential services?

So when Obama promises all this government largesse which, by some estimates, would total billions and billions in direct expenditures and new entitlements, I see little advantage to anybody and but personal wallets will get a whole lot lighter.

I'll make Nimh really happy here and post another piece from the Cato Institute site, but it is a transcript of a presentation Cato gave to the Senate Finance Committee a couple of years ago:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120847988943824973.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

(I have also posted this piece for discussion on the Conservatism in America thread.)
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 09:30 am
If you guys want to have a debate about taxes, start a new thread especially when all you got is propaganda form a wingnut think tank. (Gosh is that an oxymoron.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 09:33 am
That's okay with me if you guys want to reserve this thread for blind adoration of a candidate and not explore the possible benefits or consequences of what he is promising to do for America if he is elected.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 09:36 am
Setanta wrote:
.................

I see . . . you mean the way Clinton did it, when he produced a surplus--...........


Setanta - that statement is not correct. We haven't had a surplus in any of the Clinton years.

I'm surprised you didn't check the facts more carefully; here are the numbers for the debt outstanding in the starting and ending Clinton years:

Fiscal year ending Total Debt

09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm

Check the link for each individual year (trying to be brief here!) you'll see in each year the debt went up - don't fall for Clintonian rhetoric, there never was an actual surplus! A surplus would have brought the debt down - never happened.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 10:00 am
If your gripe is wallets getting lighter; why does it matter where it gets lighter from; the state or federal taxes? All those things mentioned have to be paid from somewhere and wallets are going to get lighter either way. Fine raise State taxes to pay for schools, roads, bridges, 9/11 responders and homeland security... just don't lie to voters and say you want to have less taxes; admit that we have to have higher state taxes to offset the lower federal taxes.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 10:04 am
revel wrote:
If your gripe is wallets getting lighter; why does it matter where it gets lighter from; the state or federal taxes? All those things mentioned have to be paid from somewhere and wallets are going to get lighter either way. Fine raise State taxes to pay for schools, roads, bridges, 9/11 responders and homeland security... just don't lie to voters and say you want to have less taxes; admit that we have to have higher state taxes to offset the lower federal taxes.


But the state and local taxes are more efficient in providing services that actually benefit anybody. Read the Cato article I immediatley linked. The guy knows what he is talking about when he points out that up to 60% of federal taxes never get to anybody who needs them. And when the remaining dollars are reallocated to the states, the state bureaucracy siphons off even more before reallocating to local governments who of necessity must take more. That is why maybe 30 cents of every welfare dollar actually goes to the poor.

Keep taxes at the lowest possible level and you eliminate all those levels of bureaucratic expense and get the best value for your dollar. (And federal bureaucracy is the most expensive of all.)
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 10:05 am
Revel - you miss the point. The point is arbitrage.

Far easier to move from one locality to another, or even from one state to another, than it is to leave US jurisdiction entirely.

There's nothing to be "confessed" here - think for yourself, people and corporations can and do move when tax rates are raised to confiscatory levels.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 10:11 am
Yea; right high seas; I would like to see some conservative governor running for re-election on raising taxes because the states have got to come up with the money to pay needed state services which have suffered since the Bush tax cut. A liberal governor couldn't even get away with that.

States feel the pinch of tight Bush budget
0 Replies
 
 

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