blatham
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:37 am
I'm going to post Greenwald's piece in its entirety...

Quote:
Obama's faith in the reasoning abilities of the American public
(updated below)

I haven't written about the Obama speech yet (video here) because I spent much of the day reading the instantaneous reactions of virtually everyone else, and because the issues raised by the speech are complex and my views about it are somewhat ambiguous. Personally, I found the speech riveting, provocative, insightful, thoughtful and courageous -- courageous because it eschewed almost completely all cliches, pandering and condescension, the first time I can recall a political figure of any significance doing so when addressing a controversial matter.

There were numerous manipulative tactics which the average cynical political strategist would have urged him to employ, and none of those were found in his speech. It was as candid and sophisticated a discussion of the complexities of race in America as any individual could possibly manage in a 45-minute speech, particularly one delivered in the middle of a heated presidential campaign and a shrill political controversy. Then again, I found the whole Wright "controversy" manufactured and relatively petty from the start, and worse, the by-product of a glaring double standard, so the speech obviously wasn't aimed at people who had the beliefs about this whole matter that I had.

The speech will be adored by Obama fans, the political and media elite, and high-information, politically engaged voters other than those firmly entrenched on the Right. But politically speaking, that isn't the target audience either. Barbara O'Brien describes perfectly the real question with regard to the speech's political impact:

Quote:
I think the question about the speech, articulated by Rachel Maddow on David Gregory's new MSNBC program, is whether white America will step up and receive the speech in the same spirit in which it was given. Obama's speech was challenging. He assumed that his audience could hear his words and and think about them. He assumed people could get beyond simple narratives, sound bytes, and jerking knees.


Steve M. reluctantly makes the case as to why the speech won't work despite (or, more accurately, because of) its high-minded, steadfast refusal to pander:

Quote:
The premises [the speech] lays out require you to be an adult, and I'm not convinced that most Americans are adults, at least when looking for a candidate to support. . . .

This isn't what Americans like to hear in political speeches. They like to hear: Good people = us (America, our party). Bad people = them (communists, terrorists, criminals, drug dealers, our ideological opposites, the other party, or some group we identify in code rather than explicitly).

That wasn't the tone of this speech. I hope I'm wrong, but Obama may pay a price for not giving people what they like to hear.


The entire premise of Barack Obama's candidacy is built upon the opposite assumption -- that Americans are not only able, but eager, to participate in a more elevated and reasoned political discourse, one that moves beyond the boisterous, screeching, simple-minded, ugly, vapid attack-based distractions and patronizing manipulation -- the Drudgian Freak Show -- that has dominated our political debates for the last two decades at least.

Nobody actually knows which of these views are right because there hasn't been a serious national campaign in a very long time that has attempted to elevate itself above the Drudgian muck by relying (not entirely, but mostly) upon reasoned discourse and substantive discussions -- at least not with the potency that Obama generates. Will George Bush's ranch hats and Willie Horton's scary face and Al Gore's earth tones and John Kerry's windsurfing tights inevitably overwhelm sober, substantive discussions of the fundamental political crises plaguing the country? Obama's insistence that Americans are hungry for that sort of elevated debate and are able to engage it -- and his willingness to stake his campaign on his being right about that -- has been, in my view, one of the most admirable aspects of his candidacy.

But in Obama's faith in the average American voter lies one of the greatest weaknesses of his campaign. His faith in the ability and willingness of Americans to rise above manipulative political tactics seems drastically to understate both the efficacy of such tactics and the deafening amplification they receive from our establishment press. Even Americans who authentically believe that they want a "new, better politics" may be swayed by the same old Drudgian sewerage because it is powerful and ubiquitous.

Petty, personality-based demonization works, and the belief that it won't work any longer in the absence of a major war against it may be more a by-product of faith and desire than reality. Obama's calm reason and rational (though inspiring) discourse are matched against very visceral images and psychologically gripping strategies. As Pam Spaulding said in commenting on the Jeremiah Wright videos:

Quote:
That said, people have to acknowledge part of the reason for the discomfort lies in Wright's delivery of the message. It's so black, isn't it? It sounds militant to tender ears outside the traditional black church. . . .

I want to turn the discussion back to race, because I think this episode with Rev. Wright exposed the whole "scary black revolution" primal fear here. . . .

When I heard Wright, I heard a delivery not unlike the unhinged gay-bashing Rev. Willie Wilson . . . . The delivery sounds so angry, so harsh to many. You get the feeling, based on the reaction out there, that people are afraid Barack Obama by association, is some sort of Trojan Horse of Black Anger waiting to be unleashed, prepared to exact revenge on white society by pulling their wool over their eyes by appearing friendly, "articulate" and non-threatening. In other words -- not that [Wright] kind of black guy.


In 1988, those deep-seated, lurking fears were stirred up perfectly by Lee Atwater and Roger Ailes in order to defeat the Willie-Horton-loving Michael Dukakis. The entire Obama campaign is predicated on the belief that it is no longer 1988. As David Axelrod put it when asked if there was debate within the Obama campaign about whether he should give this speech:

Quote:
It wasn't even a discussion. He was going to do it. I know this sounds perhaps corny, but he actually believes in the fairness and good sense of the American people, and the importance of this issue. His candidacy is predicated on the fact that we can talk to each other in an honest and forthright way on this and other issues.


The New Republic's Michael Crowley, with one of the better discussions of the Obama speech, similarly reported:

Quote:
The information era being what it is, I was already debating my thesis via email with an Obama aide as I wrote this reaction. He warned me against assuming that Reagan Democrats are defined by the same racial prejudices that defined them in the 1980s, back when crime and welfare were primary political issues, when one Willie Horton could turn an election. He may be right. I hope he is. Unfortunately, I fear that America hasn't come nearly as far as he hopes. But it is the answer to that question that will determine the fate of Barack Obama
.

I think that's a perfect summation of the overarching question, one that nobody is really able to answer. The truly distinctive and "change"-oriented aspect of Obama's campaign lies not in any new or exotic policy positions -- his views on the Middle East, for instance, are often as conventional as it gets. What is distinctive is the far more consequential assumption that Americans want and are able to engage an elevated and more noble type of politics than the depressingly familiar garbage spewed from the Rush Limbaugh Show, The Drudge Report, Fox News, the cable news media stars, and all of their cooperating media and political appendages. We'll know soon enough if Obama is right.

UPDATE: In comments, DCLaw1 makes as compelling a case as can be made as to why Obama's speech will succeed politically, with an emphasis on the importance of how well-received it was by the media and political elite. It's well worth reading.
here
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:41 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Bi- I agree with you. I found Obama's speech absolutely brilliant, and positively scary.


Nothing new here. A lot of old white women find black men scary. Even Obama's grandma.


I think this is rather inappropriate.


I agree. Old white women finding black men scary is, to say the least, inappropriate. But an unfortunate fact.


Rox, you're not helping.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:41 am
blatham wrote:
The rightwing machine is in full throat doing whatever they can tonite to overturn the positive reception and narrative re Obama's speech. From Tucker Carlson at msnbc to the clowns at fox, the talking point is that Obama didn't go far enough to distance himself from this america-hating Wright and the anti-semite Farrakhan. Limbaugh now has a "daily Reverend Wright Segment".

This is the way it will go, folks. They'll continue the smear.


Well, some of us missed the part of the speech where he explained the reason for his 20 year membership in a church that preaches racism, hatred, bigotry and anti-semitism. For many of us, he danced around it quite a bit but never got to the exact reason for giving the speech in the first place.

And why would anyone here object to the good Reverend's remarks being shared with the public? I don't sense that many here disagree with much of what he preaches, so if you want to learn even more about his views, why not tune in?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:42 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Free Duck- If the truth be told, I don't trust all three of them. I just don't trust them in a certain order!


I'm curious -- which order and what's the reasoning behind it? Or is it just a feeling?
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:46 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Bi- I agree with you. I found Obama's speech absolutely brilliant, and positively scary.


Nothing new here. A lot of old white women find black men scary. Even Obama's grandma.


I think this is rather inappropriate.


I agree. Old white women finding black men scary is, to say the least, inappropriate. But an unfortunate fact.


Rox, you're not helping.



I don't know what I am supposed to be helping. But anyone who found that speech scary needs to be called out for it. It takes a certain mindset to find Obama scary. And it is not hard to figure out what that mindset is.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:47 am
Greenwald wrote:
Petty, personality-based demonization works, and the belief that it won't work any longer in the absence of a major war against it may be more a by-product of faith and desire than reality.


This is a major war against it. There is no other way to fight it.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:47 am
JPB wrote:
blatham wrote:

Quote:
UPDATE II: Frank Schaeffer, son of highly influential Religious Right figure Francis Schaeffer, writes (h/t FPL-Dan):

Yet Schaeffer, like hordes of similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's far more mild statements. White, right-wing Christian evangelical rage against America is understandable, respectable, and noble. Liberal black Christian anger towards America is scary, subversive, and despicable.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/18/obama/


Precisely.


I've never heard of the guy. Has a former president or candidate for the presidency been a member of his church for 20 years, naming him as a beloved mentor and a part of his family (uncle), who looks to him for spiritual guidance and sings his praises as an icon in the community?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:47 am
Roxxxanne wrote:

I don't know what I am supposed to be helping. But anyone who found that speech scary needs to be called out for it. It takes a certain mindset to find Obama scary. And it is not hard to figure out what that mindset is.


The speech had something in it for you too. Please, read it again.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:51 am
maporsche wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Bi- I agree with you. I found Obama's speech absolutely brilliant, and positively scary.


Nothing new here. A lot of old white women find black men scary. Even Obama's grandma.


I think this is rather inappropriate.


Anything goes on an unmoderated forum. At least she didn't call her a slut....yet.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:56 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
But don't worry about me nimh, I'm as unconcerned by the opinion of cyber acquaintances as I ever was. Or anyone else for that matter. :wink:

Thats the spirit. :wink:

No, actually, I regret writing that post - it was way too personal. So my apologies for getting needlessly in your face like that. (Well, I know you're unconcerned, but still, it wasnt right.)

Plus, you're right, you did acknowledge Obama's speech as being good, for example, and FreeDuck's answer to your question too. I guess all the generalisations about "Obamaites" and how awful they are that are doing the rounds are starting to get to me.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 07:57 am
nappyheadedslut wrote:


Anything goes on an unmoderated forum. At least she didn't call her a slut....yet.


True, people can even adopt racist and misogynist screen names.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:09 am
Nimh, I think you mentioned a few days ago (and probably 30 pages back, which is why I'm not quoting your post) about how I used the worst examples of Obama supporters (i.e. Roxxxanne, Cyclops) as proof that Obama supporters in general (you, Soz, freeduck, Butterfly, others) are all crazy, arrogant, gnats that I just want to swat away.

Anyway, you're right, I did do that and it wasn't on purpose. I think I mentioned in the past that I only know 3 Obama supporters in real life (I'm sure I know more, but I only know 3 that have talked to me about it) and 2 of those 3 very much remind me of the worst posters here, and the other one is very civil (but not outspoken like the others). I guess it's always the most outspoken, arrogant, snobbish posters that stick out (this is true of republican, bush supporters as well)

I guess this is an apology for the generalizations that I've made against those less-outspoken Obama supporters.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:11 am
nappyheadedhohoho wrote:
JPB wrote:
blatham wrote:

Quote:
UPDATE II: Frank Schaeffer, son of highly influential Religious Right figure Francis Schaeffer, writes (h/t FPL-Dan):

Yet Schaeffer, like hordes of similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's far more mild statements. White, right-wing Christian evangelical rage against America is understandable, respectable, and noble. Liberal black Christian anger towards America is scary, subversive, and despicable.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/18/obama/


Precisely.


I've never heard of the guy. Has a former president or candidate for the presidency been a member of his church for 20 years, naming him as a beloved mentor and a part of his family (uncle), who looks to him for spiritual guidance and sings his praises as an icon in the community?


nappie noggin

Your lack of knowledge here doesn't really surprise the rest of us. Don't let it get you down, though. None of us holds you to that sort of standard.

Twenty years. That's a long time. One might worry about the parishoners because that's such a long period. Tell me, if you will, what's your level of concern for Catholics? It's really been nearly two thousand years that they've been sitting there listening to representatives of The Great Whore.

And then, yikes, it was 1960 when Pat Robertson began yelling across the CBN about how America deserves pestilences and attacks because it is, in God's eyes, such a hateful place. That's more than 45 years folks, perhaps folks just like you, have been sitting in front of their TVs and radios being guided and mentored spiritually. Heck, the man himself even ran for the Republican leadership and came close! Kind of like putting up Wright for the nomination! Scary, what?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:14 am
maporsche wrote:
Nimh, I think you mentioned a few days ago (and probably 30 pages back, which is why I'm not quoting your post) about how I used the worst examples of Obama supporters (i.e. Roxxxanne, Cyclops) as proof that Obama supporters in general (you, Soz, freeduck, Butterfly, others) are all crazy, arrogant, gnats that I just want to swat away.

Anyway, you're right, I did do that and it wasn't on purpose. I think I mentioned in the past that I only know 3 Obama supporters in real life (I'm sure I know more, but I only know 3 that have talked to me about it) and 2 of those 3 very much remind me of the worst posters here, and the other one is very civil (but not outspoken like the others). I guess it's always the most outspoken, arrogant, snobbish posters that stick out (this is true of republican, bush supporters as well)

I guess this is an apology for the generalizations that I've made against those less-outspoken Obama supporters.


Very big of you, maporsche. Thanks for saying that.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:16 am
Nappy - Don't let these a-holes like "mountie" get you down.

You are correct a Obama never answered the questions as to why he did not immediately reprimand the "pastor" or leave the church. He did do a wonderful job in outlining the status of race relations in this country, however. Yet, those like "mountie" continue to defend racists behavior and attitudes by making lame excuses for Obama.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:16 am
nappyheadedhohoho wrote:
JPB wrote:
blatham wrote:

Quote:
UPDATE II: Frank Schaeffer, son of highly influential Religious Right figure Francis Schaeffer, writes (h/t FPL-Dan):

Yet Schaeffer, like hordes of similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's far more mild statements. White, right-wing Christian evangelical rage against America is understandable, respectable, and noble. Liberal black Christian anger towards America is scary, subversive, and despicable.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/18/obama/


Precisely.


I've never heard of the guy. Has a former president or candidate for the presidency been a member of his church for 20 years, naming him as a beloved mentor and a part of his family (uncle), who looks to him for spiritual guidance and sings his praises as an icon in the community?

From blatham's link which I gather you didn't bother to read
Quote:
But the idea that America deserves terrorist attacks and other horrendous disasters has long been a frequently expressed view among the faction of white evangelical ministers to whom the Republican Party is most inextricably linked. Neither Jerry Falwell nor Pat Robertson ever retracted or denounced their view that America provoked the 9/11 attacks by doing things to anger God. John Hagee continues to believe that the City of New Orleans got what it deserved when Katrina drowned its residents and devastated the lives of thousands of Americans. And James Inhofe -- who happens to still be a Republican U.S. Senator -- blamed America for the 9/11 attacks by arguing in a 2002 Senate floor speech that "the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America" because we pressured Israel to give away parts of the West Bank.

The phrases "anti-American" and "America-haters" are among the most barren and manipulative in our entire political lexicon, but whatever they happen to mean on any given day, they easily encompass people who believe that the U.S. deserved the 9/11 attacks, devastating hurricanes and the like. Yet when are people like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, Inhofe and other white Christian radicals ever described as anti-American or America-hating extremists? Never -- because white Christian evangelicals who tie themselves to the political Right are intrinsically patriotic. Does Douthat believe that those individuals are anti-American radicals and that people who allow their children to belong to their churches are exercising grave errors of judgment?

Those advancing the argument of Douthat's are also wildly understating the magnitude of the association between "anti-American" white evangelicals and Republican leaders. By all accounts, George Bush had private conversations with Pat Robertson about matters as weighty as whether to invade Iraq. Isn't that a big scandal -- that the President is consulting with an American-hating minister -- someone who believes God allowed the 9/11 attacks as punishment for our evil country -- about vital foreign policy decisions? No, it wasn't controversial at all.

0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:16 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Bi- I agree with you. I found Obama's speech absolutely brilliant, and positively scary.


Nothing new here. A lot of old white women find black men scary. Even Obama's grandma.


is that supposed to be an insult? One day you to will be an old, i don't know, man made humanoid anomaly? and people younger... (but not much) will be making snide remarks about you too. I wonder if you'll take them with any grace.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:18 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
nappyheadedslut wrote:


Anything goes on an unmoderated forum. At least she didn't call her a slut....yet.


True, people can even adopt racist and misogynist screen names.


The White devils made me do it Smile
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:18 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Bi- I agree with you. I found Obama's speech absolutely brilliant, and positively scary.


Nothing new here. A lot of old white women find black men scary. Even Obama's grandma.


is that supposed to be an insult? One day you to will be an old, i don't know, man made humanoid anomaly? and people younger... (but not much) will be making snide remarks about you too. I wonder if you'll take them with any grace.


I don't see Roxxxanne doing much of anything with any grace.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Wed 19 Mar, 2008 08:24 am
JPB wrote:
nappyheadedhohoho wrote:
JPB wrote:
blatham wrote:

Quote:
UPDATE II: Frank Schaeffer, son of highly influential Religious Right figure Francis Schaeffer, writes (h/t FPL-Dan):

Yet Schaeffer, like hordes of similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's far more mild statements. White, right-wing Christian evangelical rage against America is understandable, respectable, and noble. Liberal black Christian anger towards America is scary, subversive, and despicable.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/18/obama/


Precisely.


I've never heard of the guy. Has a former president or candidate for the presidency been a member of his church for 20 years, naming him as a beloved mentor and a part of his family (uncle), who looks to him for spiritual guidance and sings his praises as an icon in the community?

From blatham's link which I gather you didn't bother to read
Quote:
But the idea that America deserves terrorist attacks and other horrendous disasters has long been a frequently expressed view among the faction of white evangelical ministers to whom the Republican Party is most inextricably linked. Neither Jerry Falwell nor Pat Robertson ever retracted or denounced their view that America provoked the 9/11 attacks by doing things to anger God. John Hagee continues to believe that the City of New Orleans got what it deserved when Katrina drowned its residents and devastated the lives of thousands of Americans. And James Inhofe -- who happens to still be a Republican U.S. Senator -- blamed America for the 9/11 attacks by arguing in a 2002 Senate floor speech that "the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America" because we pressured Israel to give away parts of the West Bank.

The phrases "anti-American" and "America-haters" are among the most barren and manipulative in our entire political lexicon, but whatever they happen to mean on any given day, they easily encompass people who believe that the U.S. deserved the 9/11 attacks, devastating hurricanes and the like. Yet when are people like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, Inhofe and other white Christian radicals ever described as anti-American or America-hating extremists? Never -- because white Christian evangelicals who tie themselves to the political Right are intrinsically patriotic. Does Douthat believe that those individuals are anti-American radicals and that people who allow their children to belong to their churches are exercising grave errors of judgment?

Those advancing the argument of Douthat's are also wildly understating the magnitude of the association between "anti-American" white evangelicals and Republican leaders. By all accounts, George Bush had private conversations with Pat Robertson about matters as weighty as whether to invade Iraq. Isn't that a big scandal -- that the President is consulting with an American-hating minister -- someone who believes God allowed the 9/11 attacks as punishment for our evil country -- about vital foreign policy decisions? No, it wasn't controversial at all.



So your answer is no, no president, former president or presidential candidate has supported, endorsed or been a member of a church and its pastor that routinely spews hatred and racist views from its pulpit and has for more than three decades?
0 Replies
 
 

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