blatham
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:15 am
sozobe wrote:
:-)

Found two more "Obama won"s without even really looking: Andrew Sullivan (not as obvious as you might think, he's been critical of Obama's debate performances in the past even though he's a fan) and Josh Marshall (TPM).


MSNBC, after CNN completed their broadcast, discussed the debate with a panel including Huffington, the fellow from Crooks and Liars, and Josh Marshall. It's the first time I've seen Marshall on a major network and he was extremely good. Definitely a boy to watch.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:18 am
blatham wrote:
sozobe wrote:
:-)

Found two more "Obama won"s without even really looking: Andrew Sullivan (not as obvious as you might think, he's been critical of Obama's debate performances in the past even though he's a fan) and Josh Marshall (TPM).


MSNBC, after CNN completed their broadcast, discussed the debate with a panel including Huffington, the fellow from Crooks and Liars, and Josh Marshall. It's the first time I've seen Marshall on a major network and he was extremely good. Definitely a boy to watch.


Yup. TPM is the best political site on the web IMO.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:22 am
nimh wrote:
okie wrote:
for ... McCain to sit there and imply that somehow there is something wrong with private enterprise, is in fact an insult.

But of course he never implied anything of the sort. He merely said that in order to be a President, you dont need to be a business manager - those you can hire.

But by all means continue the internecine strife in the Republican Party, I sure as hell dont mind Razz


Good survey here...
Quote:

McCain's Critics on Right Look Again

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/us/01conservatives.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:24 am
from that piece...a very notable and rare bit of honesty regarding how this all works
Quote:
Meanwhile, conservatives are growing increasingly "resigned" to the idea of a McCain nomination, said David Keene, chairman of the American Conservative Union, adding that among Washington activists, many of whom, like him, double as lobbyists, self-interest may also be a factor.

"There are people who don't like the idea of a being off a campaign or being on the bad list if the guy gets into the White House," Mr. Keene said. "This is a town in which 90 percent of the people balance their access and income on the one hand versus their principles on the other."
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:30 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
sozobe wrote:
I noticed the body language stuff too. General observation -- Hillary does much better in sit-down debates. She seems so much more comfortable and at ease. Obama does better in stand-ups. He's tall, he's got good posture, he can use his body and his arms more. When he sits he seems like he has to work harder to not just put his elbows on the table and look too casual. When he's standing he looks like he's already where he wants to be.


One of the things that I have noticed is that many people are comparing Obama with John F. Kennedy. You are too young to remember this, but the word that was bandied about (ad nauseum) when Kennedy was in office was "charisma". He looked presidential, whatever that means. He had a presence that would have done him well at Central Casting.

I think that Obama has that same quality, and that may very well be a part to which people are responding.

After Hillary won the primary in Florida, there was a sound bite that the network ran over and over again. At the end of what she said, the timbre of her voice was raised to the point of screechiness. Personally, I think that although she was attempting to show enthusiasm for her win, IMO she came off as strident, and actually, very annoying.

As you know, I am not interested in either of those two candidates. But I do find it fascinating to watch as to how they capture and energize their audiences.


Yes they are certainly casting Obama as Kennedy to Hillary's Nixon.
They feed the masses msuchy **** and coat it with sugar and the masses can't eat enough of it.

This isn't soupposed to be a beauty contest but as I've said before, everything is.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:33 am
thomas said
Quote:
Unlike Sozobe and Blatham, I'm not in love with Obama.


People are talkin, talking 'bout people
I hear them whisper, you won't believe it
They think we're lovers kept under covers
I just ignore it, but they keep saying
We laugh just a little too loud
We stand just a little too close
We stare just a little too long
Maybe they're seeing, something we don't, Darlin'
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:38 am
Jonathan Cohn politely but persuasively fact-checks what an Obama press release says about his health care proposal and mandates:

Quote:
The Last Word (Hopefully) on Mandates

01.02.2008

For those missed the first few minutes of the debate, an early question from Jeanne Cummings went to Barack Obama: Why, she wanted to know, was his plan superior to hers if estimates suggest that 15 million people would remain uninsured?

Readers of this space have heard about this debate aplenty. Most of those who care to form an opinion on it have; those who don't have moved on. And that's just fine. Personally, I'd be happy to say nothing more about it.

But I've just received a press release from the Obama campaign suggesting that 15 million figure isn't reliable. It cites articles noting that Clinton got her figure from a New Republic piece I wrote some time ago -- which is, according to one of the "factcheck" articles cited, "hardly an authoritative source."

So just to clear the record, let me restate what I stated in my follow-up articles on this subject:

The estimate was based initially on an interview with Jonathan Gruber, the MIT economist whom all the campaigns (including Obama's) consulted for estimates of how their plans would work. It was a rough estimate, as these estimates usually are, but as reliable as any of the other numbers that get thrown around in campaigns.

Subsequent to that, I interviewed several other economists. The consensus was that Gruber's estimate was pretty good -- and that, more important, the basic underlying point was right: Without a mandate, some significant portion of people would remain without insurance. The only dispute was how big a difference it would make.

Not everybody agrees; Robert Reich, among others, has said he thinks the argument is hogwash. But based on my discussions with people who actually study health care policy -- i.e., the real experts on this -- I believe it's correct.

Those two follow-up articles about the debate are here and here.

But let me just add one more thing. Just yesterday, the Urban Institute released a report on this issue. I had consulted some of their scholars in my initial round of interviews. Since that time, they've done more formal estimates. Their new estimate is that a plan like Obama's would leave... 15 million uninsured. (Actually, 15.5 million.)

Here's the money quote from that report:

    Opponents of an individual mandate argue that they can come close to universal coverage with a combination of income-related subsidies, more options for purchasing affordable coverage (e.g., through purchasing pools), and administrative mechanisms for facilitating enrollment in insurance. The most recent data indicate that there are 47 million uninsured people in the United States. Even if subsidies, benefits, and administrative simplifications are sufficient to reach two-thirds of the uninsured (a reach beyond what any study to date has shown for a voluntary system), this would still leave 15.5 million people uninsured.This would be admirable, but would be considerably less than full coverage, and, as health care costs and insurance premiums increase, these numbers could easily erode unless further government dollars were injected into the system.
Just to be totally clear on this, I think the distinction here is an important one -- as much for what it says about the candidates' thinking as for the actual policy details. Among other things, I tend to think -- as Clinton has argued -- that you are more likely to achieve something approaching full universal coverage if you start out with a rhetorical commitment that everybody will be covered. To me, it's a matter of pushing the debate as far as possible -- and mandates do that.

I also think Clinton deserves credit for bravery. If anybody is the one telling "hard truths" here, it's her.

But now we're moving into strategic calculations about which, frankly, reasonable people can have a lot of disagreement. And whatever you think about mandates, that doesn't mean Obama wouldn't do great things for health care reform.

As Obama himself noted -- and as I wrote earlier this week -- Ted Kennedy, who has arguably done more to advance the cause of health care reform than anybody in Washington, believes Obama can deliver universal coverage. That means something.

What's more, Obama's promise to push legislation through with a combination of public pressure and brokering deals with hostile special interests is consistent with the way he operated in Illinois -- where, as I reported not long ago, he really did impress a lot of health care reformers with his savvy and dedication to the cause.

Perhaps most important, the most critical element in passing universal health care will be the number of Democrats in Congress. If Obama has longer coattails -- if he can really build a larger Democratic majority, as many of his supporters claim -- then that's a definite vote in his favor.

So Obama has great potential as a health care reformer. (Indeed, overall I thought he sounded far more crisp and self-assured in this debate than I'd heard before.)

But about the policy question asked during the debate -- whether this mandates make a difference -- the overwhelming consensus among experts is that they do.

--Jonathan Cohn
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:53 am
Jonathan Cohn, from nimh's article wrote:

But about the policy question asked during the debate -- whether this mandates make a difference -- the overwhelming consensus among experts is that they do.


Probably 60% of the reason that I support Clinton over Obama.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:08 pm
UNIVERSAL COVERAGE is a buzzword that makes people all warm and fuzzy when they hear it. But that isn't the problem. The problem is that our health care system is a confusing mess and a bloated bureaucracy (boy that word is spelled funny) that costs too much in every way, and is constantly being corrupted by special interest groups and lobbyists.

Neither of their plans really do much to address this problem, but at least Obama says he will try to bring the costs down significantly. I like that idea. And both of them say they want to significantly lessen the effect of special interests in general, and I believe Obama when he says that more than I believe Hillary when she says that. Hillary said last night she wants to give us more choice, which to me translates to more confusion and bureaucracy, and more options that mostly suck.

Wolf the putz, in asking a question of Obama last night, mentioned the 15 million uninsured his plan would leave, and he made sure to point out that that means WE would ALL be paying for those people. But if families are saving on their health costs by around $2500/year, as Obama said is the goal with his plan, then who cares if we're paying for someone who isn't covered? We're still paying less, aren't we? Is Obama doing a little fuzzy math there, or is this idea that we'd be paying for deadbeats who don't want coverage not as big a cost as some believe?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:31 pm
Meanwhile, Paul Krugman's blog alerts us to a mailer from the Obama smearing the Clinton health care plan.
    [img]http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/obama-mailer.png[/img]
The lies in this mailer are all the more frustrating as they are easily identifiable by everyone who actually reads Clinton's plan. Of course, the only reason I'm pointing this out is to show what a difficult issue healthcare is.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:39 pm
blatham wrote:
thomas said
Quote:
Unlike Sozobe and Blatham, I'm not in love with Obama.


People are talkin, talking 'bout people
I hear them whisper, you won't believe it
They think we're lovers kept under covers
I just ignore it, but they keep saying
We laugh just a little too loud
We stand just a little too close
We stare just a little too long
Maybe they're seeing, something we don't, Darlin'

I'm pretty sure you're on record somewhere on A2K as actually saying you're in love, mister. Do you plead guilty, or do I have to use the search button? <stern look>
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:00 pm
I watched the second half of the debate that I missed last night, definitely Obama's half!

I've seen a lot of talk about how it was notable that he didn't rule out a run with Hillary, but really, what else could he say? This is another one where body language had a part -- the moderator person said something like, "So, is that a yes? Hillary is on your short list?" and looking down and away from Hillary, Obama said "Hillary would be on anyone's short list."

I think he handled that whole section really well but I'm not seeing that he'd ask her to be VP from that.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:03 pm
sozobe wrote:
I watched the second half of the debate that I missed last night, definitely Obama's half!

I've seen a lot of talk about how it was notable that he didn't rule out a run with Hillary, but really, what else could he say? This is another one where body language had a part -- the moderator person said something like, "So, is that a yes? Hillary is on your short list?" and looking down and away from Hillary, Obama said "Hillary would be on anyone's short list."

I think he handled that whole section really well but I'm not seeing that he'd ask her to be VP from that.


The question really is whether she would ask him, if the positions were reversed.

She'd be a fool not to.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:07 pm
Gallup national Poll: Obama within the margin of error.

From 20 points down 10 days ago.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:08 pm
Oh my goodness.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:09 pm
Thomas wrote:
blatham wrote:
thomas said
Quote:
Unlike Sozobe and Blatham, I'm not in love with Obama.


People are talkin, talking 'bout people
I hear them whisper, you won't believe it
They think we're lovers kept under covers
I just ignore it, but they keep saying
We laugh just a little too loud
We stand just a little too close
We stare just a little too long
Maybe they're seeing, something we don't, Darlin'

I'm pretty sure you're on record somewhere on A2K as actually saying you're in love, mister. Do you plead guilty, or do I have to use the search button? <stern>


I love everyone, so your charge has clear merit. But it's also the case that I've just passed through two weeks of denial to O'Bill and others that I had a big unique chubby for Hillary.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:10 pm
One more time...

Wolf the putz, in asking a question of Obama last night, mentioned the 15 million uninsured his plan would leave, and he made sure to point out that that means WE would ALL be paying for those people. But if families are saving on their health costs by around $2500/year, as Obama said is the goal with his plan, then who cares if we're paying for someone who isn't covered? We're still paying less, aren't we? Is Obama doing a little fuzzy math there, or is this idea that we'd be paying for deadbeats who don't want coverage not as big a cost as some believe?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:28 pm
This is a good question. I don't know off the top of my head. I could research it, but maybe Butrflynet or Thomas, who know more about the respective health plans, can give a better answer.

One thing is that there was just something on CNN about it and it seems like Obama's plan is much cheaper than Hillary's. Something like 50-60 billion (Obama) vs. more than 100 billion but I forget how much more. So it could be that the costs are built in to Hillary's plan and then the costs of taking care of the uninsured would be on top of Obama's plan... but still roughly equivalent.

I don't know, though. I thoroughly researched this stuff a while back and concluded I was fine with Obama's plan, but now I don't remember details one way or the other.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:30 pm
Obama addressed this last night. He said that if people don't want to sign up for health insurance, fine.

But if they come to the emergency room with their hat in their hand, they are getting signed up and they can pay the back money they owe for not being part of it in the first place.

EMINENTLY sensible if you ask me. It forces nothing on people but responsibility.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 01:31 pm
Okay, fair enough. Thanks for taking a shot at it anyway.
0 Replies
 
 

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