Lash
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 11:52 am
nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
What is Rudy's one-note?

In the words of Joe Biden, "noun verb 9/11".

Not hardly. His masterful refurbishment of NY is much more of a qualification. 9/11 just made him more popular. The translation of his decisive law and order ethos to foreign policy looks good to alot of people.

His bravery regarding social policy places him outside the pack as well.

Hardly a one note.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 11:59 am
Lash, Maybe New Yorkers may see Rudy in that light, but most Americans know him by "I'm the guy who managed the tragedy of 9-11."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 03:04 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Lash, Maybe New Yorkers may see Rudy in that light, but most Americans know him by "I'm the guy who managed the tragedy of 9-11."
In all your travels; did you ever get a chance to see 42nd st before and after Giuliani? Stunning.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 03:20 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Lash, Maybe New Yorkers may see Rudy in that light, but most Americans know him by "I'm the guy who managed the tragedy of 9-11."
In all your travels; did you ever get a chance to see 42nd st before and after Giuliani? Stunning.


No. I'm due for a visit to NYC, but it's not on the top of my list of destinations.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 03:33 pm
You would have needed to pack an Uzi pre-Giuliani...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 04:23 pm
Lash wrote:
You would have needed to pack an Uzi pre-Giuliani...


I dohn't think they allow that on the airlines yet.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 04:41 pm
Lash wrote:
Not hardly. His masterful refurbishment of NY is much more of a qualification. 9/11 just made him more popular. The translation of his decisive law and order ethos to foreign policy looks good to alot of people.

His bravery regarding social policy places him outside the pack as well.

Hardly a one note.

Okie disagrees with you.

Lash wrote:
You would have needed to pack an Uzi pre-Giuliani...

I was in New York in '88 and I was fine, thank you.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 04:43 pm
Barack Obama, speaking on 20 December in New Hampshire:

Quote:
right now among all Democratic nominees or Democratic candidates I do better in a general election match ups than the other candidates.

This was apparently the first time Obama specifically cited the polls in an electability argument. His argument already is made often by his supporters; here's a random example from the comments to a Marc Ambinder blog thread I was just reading:

Quote:
According to recent polls, Obama does much better against the republicans than Hillary does, so her electability point is out the window.

For the record: this is simply not true. Not just Obama's supporters, but Obama himself is wrong here - just flat-out wrong. Misinformed or deceitful? I'll leave that up to you. But he's wrong.

Read on on the Polls, bets, etc thread.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 05:18 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
I'm not sure what Krugman meant when he used the term "populist," and if that label can be applied to Teddy Roosevelt and Bob LaFollette (as nimh has done), then I guess it has no meaning left at all.

Huh? If you apply the label "populist" to Bob LaFollette "it has no meaning left at all"?

This is what the site FightingBob.com, established "to honor and revive the spirit and mission of our namesake, Robert "Fighting Bob" La Follette", writes of him:

Quote:
It was this militant faith in the people that enabled him to win reelection to the Senate in 1922 by an overwhelming margin. And this faith guided the Midwestern populist as he embarked on the most successful leftwing Presidential campaign in American history. [..]

La Follette's 1924 crusade won almost five million votes--more than five times the highest previous total for a candidate endorsed by the Socialists. He carried Wisconsin, ran second in eleven Western states, and swept working-class Jewish and Italian wards of New York and other major cities--proving that a rural-urban populist coalition could, indeed, be forged. [..]

The 1924 campaign laid the groundwork for the resurgence of leftwing populist movements across the upper Midwest--the Non-Partisan League of North Dakota, the Farmer-Labor Party of Minnesota, and the Progressive Party of Wisconsin.

The site identifies LaFollette as "the populist governor, U.S. Senator, and presidential candidate from Wisconsin who founded the Progressive Party and spent his career battling the corrupting, impoverishing and anti-democratic influence of big moneyed interests over government and public policy".

The American Historical Review called La Follette "a key link between the Populist-Progressive reform movements of the early twentieth century and the New Deal innovations of the 1930s".

In her biography, Fighting Bob La Follette: The Righteous Reformer, Nancy Unger wrote that, while back in 1896 he was still a strictly Republican party man, "LaFollette would later align himself with William Jennings Bryan on a number of substantive political issues and make many Populist reform goals his own."

It's not just a retrospectively applied label either: back in 1935, the Quarterly Journal of Economics wrote that "the platform of the new third party [of 1924] expressed Bob LaFollette's populist philosophy".

And that's all just a quick Google away.

So what am I missing?

Like I said, the populist movement has of course a long and storied history in the US, and it reached decades on into the 20th century. It's associated with a specific brand of politics, not just as a style but in substance too. And look at how FightingBob.com identifies LaFollette to see how come I associate Edwards' current approach with populism, and Obama's, not so much.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 07:05 pm
Lash wrote:
His masterful refurbishment of NY is much more of a qualification.


and apparently some type of group hallucination
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 07:26 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Lash wrote:
His masterful refurbishment of NY is much more of a qualification.


and apparently some type of group hallucination


LOL

Wonderful bethie. You just made my day.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Dec, 2007 08:20 pm
"group hallucination" works in so many ways in politics and religion...
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 12:07 am
nimh wrote:
The site identifies LaFollette as "the populist governor, U.S. Senator, and presidential candidate from Wisconsin who founded the Progressive Party and spent his career battling the corrupting, impoverishing and anti-democratic influence of big moneyed interests over government and public policy".

Well then, it's official.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 02:05 am
You people! <nimh and beth...and blatham>

How can you try to wrest NY from him? He said what he would do---he did it---it worked.

Giuliani changed reality in NY.

period!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 08:58 am
That "period" sounds mean...pretend there is an ellipsis there instead...

"..."

:wink:
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:21 am
nimh wrote:
Barack Obama, speaking on 20 December in New Hampshire:

Quote:
right now among all Democratic nominees or Democratic candidates I do better in a general election match ups than the other candidates.

This was apparently the first time Obama specifically cited the polls in an electability argument. His argument already is made often by his supporters; here's a random example from the comments to a Marc Ambinder blog thread I was just reading:

Quote:
According to recent polls, Obama does much better against the republicans than Hillary does, so her electability point is out the window.

For the record: this is simply not true. Not just Obama's supporters, but Obama himself is wrong here - just flat-out wrong. Misinformed or deceitful? I'll leave that up to you. But he's wrong.

Read on on the Polls, bets, etc thread.


I'm looking for the Fox channel to find the Packers game and just came across Chris Matthews, saying exactly the same thing as Obama. Based on an MSN/NBC poll I think it said at the bottom. That Obama does much better against Republicans than Hillary does... it showed vs. Huckabee and there was a much bigger spread (both led, Obama by much more).

I'll try to find the polls in question.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:27 am
Haven't found that one yet, but here's a Zogby poll from December 20th -- the day that Obama made the comments you quote -- that shows him beating all possible Republican nominees, while Hillary would only beat Romney or Thompson.

Quote:
Released: December 20, 2007

Zogby Poll: Obama Leads Top Republicans

Telephone survey shows fellow Democrats Hillary Clinton and John Edwards would defeat some GOPers, lose to others

UTICA, New York - Illinois Sen. Barack Obama would defeat all five of the top Republicans in prospective general election contests, performing better than either of his two top rivals, a new Zogby telephone poll shows.

His margins of advantage range from a 4 percent edge over Arizona Sen. John McCain and a 5 percent edge over Arkansas' Mike Huckabee to an 18 percentage point lead over Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, the survey shows. Against New York's Rudy Giuliani he leads by 9%, and against Fred Thompson of Tennessee he holds a 16 point edge.


http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1404
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:33 am
There's another poll out there that shows the same thing, because the margin for Obama/ Huckabee was bigger than 5% in the graphic I saw. Still looking for that one, even though the above already shows that Obama was not wrong after all.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:49 am
Lash wrote:
That "period" sounds mean...pretend there is an ellipsis there instead...

"..."

:wink:


No problem, Lash. Clearly your post was having its period and that was just going to be that.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2007 10:58 am
soz

I'll let nimh speak the poll stuff he's so familiar with.

But how likely do you think it is that a general campaign would end up with Huckabee beating Hillary?

It still seems fairly clear to me that Obama has the potential to enthuse and invigorate the american electorate moreso than any other candidate.
0 Replies
 
 

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