sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 07:21 am
My most recent iteration of those points was yesterday on the Obama, Hillery [sic] thread and kind of got lost in a bunch of other stuff anyway, so I'll go ahead and put it here:


I don't know if this is the best place for it, but it kinda-sorta ties in to something I'd been thinking of already...

I've mentioned before that Obama's black and not-black experience reminds me a lot of my own deaf and not-deaf experience. One feature of that is being in situations where one "side" of your identity is demonizing the other "side." That was something that really resonated with me from Obama's first book -- accounts of how he'd talk to his black friends about how white people are not actually always that horrible, much the way that I talk to Deaf friends about how all hearing people are not necessarily horrible. While also being aware of the larger injustices that of course do exist, and recognizing the basis of why these feelings are there. And so at the same time arguing against people from the other "side" -- the ones who say "those Deaf people are just so reactionary and unrealistic," and you say, "Yes, but, you have to understand that they have dealt with prejudice and oppression for much of their lives -- that woman over there, she's not even 50, she had her hands tied behind her back when she was in school to prevent her from signing." Etc.

So you find yourself in this position, often, where you are talking to people who are quite sure they are right -- and are willing to tell you that because you're one of them, fully or partially -- but you see the other side of it. It instills in you a deep distrust of absolutism.

I saw this quote recently, and liked it:

Quote:


Mrs. Vandeventer is a Republican who "is tired" of being a Republican. More from her here:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/the-republicans-in-the-crowd/
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 01:03 pm
Interesting point Sozobe. Very likely your point about Obama is indeed true. Give him a few more years of accountable experience in public office or private endeavor and I might vote for him. Even today I would prefer him to most of the other candidates running - but not all of them.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 01:40 pm
snood wrote:
Why We Wish the Clintons Would Just Go Away

Because they surround themselves with people like Mark Penn and James Carville (Rove-like figures, just dumber and more duplicitous than Karl), and rather than making the Clintons look pure by contrast, they make them look even sleazier.

Because they lie more often than they tell the truth, and we can't take it anymore (where to begin? Ah, perhaps, one of Bill's freshest: he was always against the war in Iraq).

Because when they don't lie, they avoid telling the truth, prevaricate and try to laugh it off.

Because they have spun us into complete exhaustion (she, the most famous woman in America, complains that Iowa is difficult because she is less well known than a failed vice presidential candidate and a half-of-one-term senator).

Because they live on another planet, one where attacking a candidate's kindergarten record is appropriate and useful preparation for a general election.

Because he's the first black president as long as it doesn't interfere with their plans for world domination (when it does, they can turn into Jesse Helms and Trent Lott on a dime, from the Sista Souljah absurdity to the suggestion that the first black candidate with a shot at winning the presidency is a drug dealer).

Because she's a feminist until it is her own husband who abuses his power by engaging in sexual relationships with women who are his subalterns. Then she becomes a woman who stands by her man.

Because she's a strong, independent woman until she needs to ride the coattails of her husband's popularity. Then she is two for the price of one.
Because long before New York City taxpayers were subsidizing Rudy Giuliani's extramarital affair, Arkansans were paying for Bill's.

Because when she says there will be no surprises about her past in this campaign, we remember all the scandals we glossed over because it was all a right-wing conspiracy, and realize how little we know about the Clintons.

Because they, the reason why heterosexuals should be banned from getting married (or at the very least should be prosecuted for breach of contract), oppose marriage for gay people.

Because they'd rather die than admit a mistake.
Because Republicans would rather run against her than against Dennis Kucinich.

Because the prospect of 16 years of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton would make us seriously consider voting for Cynthia McKinney and the Green Party. Or Ron Paul. Or Michael Bloomberg. Or whoever's on the Socialist Party line.

Because the Clintons are angry that America doesn't just roll over and elect her president the way New York rolled over and elected her senator.
Because we don't have to settle for them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-jenkins/why-we-wish-the-clintons-_b_76930.html


Finally, something from the Huffington Post I can actually agree with.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 02:18 pm
mysteryman wrote:
snood wrote:
Because Republicans would rather run against her than against Dennis Kucinich.

Well, thats nonsense for one. I think opinions about who would be easier or more difficult to run against, Hillary or Obama, are pretty evenly divided among Republicans. And with good reasons.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 02:29 pm
nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
snood wrote:
Because Republicans would rather run against her than against Dennis Kucinich.

Well, thats nonsense for one. I think opinions about who would be easier or more difficult to run against, Hillary or Obama, are pretty evenly divided among Republicans. And with good reasons.


Learn to read!!!
You are crediting me with something I didnt write or post, although I do agree with the sentiments.

It was posted by snood, and was written by Paul Jenkins and published in the Huffington Post.
I am neither of those people, nor am I the Huffington Post.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 02:30 pm
mysteryman wrote:
nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
snood wrote:
Because Republicans would rather run against her than against Dennis Kucinich.

Well, thats nonsense for one. I think opinions about who would be easier or more difficult to run against, Hillary or Obama, are pretty evenly divided among Republicans. And with good reasons.


Learn to read!!!
You are crediting me with something I didnt write or post, although I do agree with the sentiments.

It was posted by snood, and was written by Paul Jenkins and published in the Huffington Post.
I am neither of those people, nor am I the Huffington Post.


If you look closely, you will note that Nimh did not attribute those words to you at all. One might even be tempted to say 'learn to read!'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 02:32 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
nimh wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
snood wrote:
Because Republicans would rather run against her than against Dennis Kucinich.

Well, thats nonsense for one. I think opinions about who would be easier or more difficult to run against, Hillary or Obama, are pretty evenly divided among Republicans. And with good reasons.


Learn to read!!!
You are crediting me with something I didnt write or post, although I do agree with the sentiments.

It was posted by snood, and was written by Paul Jenkins and published in the Huffington Post.
I am neither of those people, nor am I the Huffington Post.


If you look closely, you will note that Nimh did not attribute those words to you at all. One might even be tempted to say 'learn to read!'

Cycloptichorn


But by putting my name on the quote box, it would appear to someone that didnt read the original post that it was my words being quoted.
I dont want credit for something I didnt write.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Tue 18 Dec, 2007 02:46 pm
I haven't read this thread for weeks, and I came by and saw that and instantly knew it was Snood that had said it. But then again, I know how to read.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2007 02:07 pm
mysteryman wrote:
But by putting my name on the quote box, it would appear to someone that didnt read the original post that it was my words being quoted.
I dont want credit for something I didnt write.

Um, Mysteryman. Before you get into a tizzy and excuse others of not being able to read, can you please read that post again and see that the quote in question was properly attributed to Snood?

It's simple enough to see.. after all, right above the quote I was responding to it says snood wrote:. I was quoting you quoting Snood, anyone who can read can see that.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2007 03:55 pm
Then MM is probably correct to say that the original quote by snood should have been used and MM's name should have been left out of it - if his reply to what snood wrote is not going to be included as well.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2007 04:50 pm
snood wrote:
Because Republicans would rather run against her than against Dennis Kucinich.


It's easy to be confused when one has a reading disability.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2007 06:20 pm
Meaning what?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 19 Dec, 2007 06:22 pm
Meaning, there are those who would confuse who wrote that statement.
That should be obvious for those who know how to read.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 12:33 pm
Lots of negative reaction to the Krugman column on Obama in the NYT Letters to the Editor. I find the balance interesting -- 6 disagree with Krugman, 1 agrees. That's unusual, in my experience of reading Letters to the Editor re: Krugman. The concluding one:

Quote:
To the Editor:

Paul Krugman suggests that Senator Barack Obama is being naïve by eschewing John Edwards's anti-corporate populism and offering to create a "big table" in creating a national health care plan.

But historically populism has failed as a unifying national platform in part because Americans tend to dislike "class warfare." Also, policy change is most likely, and most likely to succeed, when it is incremental.

The health care industry employs huge numbers of Americans and accounts for about 15 percent of our gross domestic product. The industry has enormous power and would kill any plan it deemed antagonistic. To hope otherwise would be naïve.

We may not like the profit-based health care system that we inherited, but the best chance for change is bending not breaking. Just ask Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Zachary W. Oberfield

Philadelphia, Dec. 18, 2007


I agree with points in several other ones too though:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/opinion/l20krugman.html
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 01:18 pm
sozobe, quoting a letter to the NYT editor, wrote:
But historically populism has failed as a unifying national platform in part because Americans tend to dislike "class warfare." Also, policy change is most likely, and most likely to succeed, when it is incremental.

FDR will find that an interesting piece of news. He somehow missed the memo on this.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 03:29 pm
Do you think the situation today is comparable to that in 1932?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 03:53 pm
Thomas wrote:
sozobe, quoting a letter to the NYT editor, wrote:
But historically populism has failed as a unifying national platform in part because Americans tend to dislike "class warfare." Also, policy change is most likely, and most likely to succeed, when it is incremental.

FDR will find that an interesting piece of news. He somehow missed the memo on this.

Actually, that letter writer's take on Krugman's article is pretty much the same as mine. Populism has failed as a unifying national platform. If FDR used populism (and, in my view, he didn't), it only succeeded because of the extraordinary circumstances of the Great Depression. Ordinarily, however, populist rhetoric just doesn't work very well (just ask Pat Buchanan).

I would, on the other hand, offer one correction: Americans will accept class warfare as long as it's the upper class waging war on the lower classes. That kind of class warfare has a surprisingly long record of success in this country. The reverse -- the kind that Edwards is attempting to practice and that Krugman, for dubious reasons, thinks is sweeping the country -- doesn't have the same kind of track record.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 03:57 pm
What's interesting about the CA polls is that although Clinton is ahead by double-digits against Obama, but when Clinton is polled against any of the republican front runners, she's no better than Obama - only by a few points.
0 Replies
 
Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 08:03 pm
I just found out that there are 8,000 people volunteering to go to Iowa to knock on doors for Obama. My cousin called to tell me that she had not heard from the Obama representative for a long time...so she called to find out WHERE we were assigned. The fellow (young) told her that WE were no longer needed as there were so many that volunteered. My cousin asked, why he hadn't informed her as her friend/cousin had bought a ticket to fly to Chicago....

I was sooo disappointed not to be in on the process of the caucus as well as meeting people in Iowa, having lived there many years.

My cousin told the fellow that it was a shame because they need older people to get the message out for Obama. It would seem to make sense. I just lost a few bucks...but really am disappointed.
0 Replies
 
Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Thu 20 Dec, 2007 08:18 pm
;-) My husband says Obama should know what his people are doing....!!! I told him there was no way that he would know any of this! Campaigns are too large for this and the little guy knows it.
0 Replies
 
 

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