nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 04:40 pm
Same with the second juxtaposition of supposedly contradictory quotes:

Quote:
COURAGE AND TOUGHNESS VS. WEAKNESS AND CAUTION

KRUGMAN THEN: Obama's Plan Passes A "Basic Test of Courage" And Gets "Points For Toughness." Paul Krugman wrote, "It also passes one basic test of courage. You can't be serious about health care without proposing an injection of federal funds to help lower-income families pay for insurance, and that means advocating some kind of tax increase. Well, Mr. Obama is now on record calling for a partial rollback of the Bush tax cuts. Also, in the Obama plan, insurance companies won't be allowed to deny people coverage or charge them higher premiums based on their medical history. Again, points for toughness. Best of all, the Obama plan contains the same feature that makes the Edwards plan superior to, say, the Schwarzenegger proposal in California: it lets people choose between private plans and buying into a Medicare-type plan offered by the government." [New York Times, 6/4/07]

KRUGMAN NOW: "Obama's Caution...Led Him To Propose A Relatively Weak, Incomplete Health Care Plan." Paul Krugman wrote, "What seems to have happened is that Mr. Obama's caution, his reluctance to stake out a clearly partisan position, led him to propose a relatively weak, incomplete health care plan." [New York Times, 11/30/07]


Allright - so the whole point is that what he said in that second quote is contradictory to what he wrote before right, that he's flip-flopping?

But click that first link again and read what Krugman also wrote, back then already:

Quote:
The Obama plan doesn't mandate insurance for adults. [..] In that regard it's actually weaker than the Schwarzenegger plan. [..] Call it the timidity of hope.

On the whole, the Obama plan is better than I feared but not as comprehensive as I would have liked. It doesn't quell my worries that Mr. Obama's dislike of "bitter and partisan" politics makes him too cautious.

So what Krugman wrote now on 30 November in fact is an almost direct rephrasing of what he already wrote back then; and yet the Obama campaign tries to spin it into a Krugman flip-flop.

And that hackery appears not just on the "Fact Check" part of the Obama site - but actually under the pious quote,

    [i]"I want to campaign the same way I govern, which is to respond directly and forcefully with the truth," ~ Barack Obama, 11/08/07[/i]
The chutzpah Exclamation
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 04:40 pm
Yeah. Krugman doesn't seem like the kind of enemy you'd want to make.

Geez, things are going to be all over the place on a weekly/ daily basis for the next year or so, aren't they?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 04:52 pm
Thanks Nimh. I've emailed your comments to the webmaster for action.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 04:55 pm
sozobe wrote:
Yeah. Krugman doesn't seem like the kind of enemy you'd want to make.

Geez, things are going to be all over the place on a weekly/ daily basis for the next year or so, aren't they?


I suppose there is some inevitability in this. There's the passion of supporters but there's also many many millions of dollars invested. A fine argument for electoral financing reform.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 04:57 pm
sozobe wrote:
Yeah. Krugman doesn't seem like the kind of enemy you'd want to make.

Well, that makes it stupid as well as low. If you're going to deliberately deceive in some hack-job "fact check", it's one thing to do it against some conservative blowhard. That you could at least still sell as proof that you've got the balls to fight back against the Republican smear machine, on an eye-for-an-eye basis or something. That you're not afraid to make dirty hands like some previous Democrats who were creamed by Rove etc. were.

But to do a hack-job like that against one of the foremost progressive voices in the media? And to do one that is so transparent that anyone can debunk it by clicking on the very links they provide? Dude. Way to go to make the health care wonks that disagree with you actually start actively disliking you.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 07:03 pm
blatham wrote:
Now, if it is the case that joe or jpb or others gained the notion that Hillary has a "sense of entitlement" only after reading Corn...that they'd never entertained such a notion previously...then your point would have merit.


Part of me wants to let sleeping dogs lie, part of me wants to respond. The part of me that wants to let sleeping dogs lie is directly related to the fact that this thread is not about Hillary (sorry, soz). Here's the part of me that wants to respond...

First, I have no party affiliation whatsoever. My preference would be the dissolution of the two-party system to one that allows candidates to stand on their own philosophies and principles. I abhor party politics (including Obama's inexcusable support of Todd Stoger Jr's. campaign for Cook County Board President for no reason other than he was the Democrat candidate in the race) and I embrace the Jim Jeffords type of independence that caused him to leave the Republican Party when that Party no longer represented a position he could endorse.

In a recent post you mention visceral reactions to Hillary and I admit to having very strong visceral reactions. You believe the source of those reactions have been thrust upon me by the Republicans and by the media. I believe the source of them is her insistence during the early part of the second Clinton presidency that any question of "their" agenda was from "our enemies" -- words I heard with my own ears. It was more than a decade ago that my reactions to her were formulated. joe's recent link reinforced those reactions but not precipitate them. In that, you are correct.

I've given these reactions a great deal of thought and I realize that they are identical to the reactions I have to GWB and they stem from the same source -- their undying and unquestioning loyalty and devotion to that which they hold most sacred. The only difference I perceive is the source of that devotion. Bush's devotion is to his god and Hillary's devotion is to Clintonism. The shear audacity of including herself in Bill's political 'enemies' and the premise that she had any role to play in the advancement her political agendas under his administration was and continues to be more than I can swallow. Any claim on her part of experience beyond being the Senator from NY is ludacris and once again points to her own self-inflated image. To my minds eye, Hillary has never demonstrated an interest in being a public servant and the only candidate I could ever fully endorse is one who doesn't want the job. Hillary wants it badly and, in my honest opinion, she wants it for the wrong reasons. I have never had reason to believe that she wants to be President for any reason other than wanting to be President - particularly, the history-making legacy of being the first woman President.

I've said repeatedly that the only way I would ever vote for Hillary is if she is running against a Pat Robertson-type fundamentalist (there seems to be at least a couple of those on the opposing side, so we'll see). My objection to your insinuation that there can be no original bias against her candicacy remains. I do object and I object strongly. I will always have concerns over candidates who demonstrate an undying loyalty to anything other than public service for the purpose of serving the public. Hillary by no means fits that bill.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 07:23 pm
JPB

You looked at my argument and reflected on it. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 08:06 pm
Very funny thing here. Kant attack ad.
http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/08/kant-attack-ad/
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 09:29 pm
sozobe wrote:
Yeah. Krugman doesn't seem like the kind of enemy you'd want to make.

I don't think the stupidity lies in making Paul Krugman their enemy. That didn't stop George Bush from becoming president. The stupidity lies in presenting a "fact check" about Krugman's writing that flies in the face of, well, the facts of Krugman's writing.

Meanwhile, Krugman has posted a repsonse of his own on his blog.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 09:32 pm
blatham wrote:
Very funny thing here. Kant attack ad.
http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/08/kant-attack-ad/

Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 09:33 pm
sozobe wrote:
Geez, things are going to be all over the place on a weekly/ daily basis for the next year or so, aren't they?

They will. I'm still getting used to the thought that nimh and I favor the same candidate. One of us must be making a terrible mistake.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 09:50 pm
Thomas wrote:
I'm still getting used to the thought that nimh and I favor the same candidate. One of us must be making a terrible mistake.

Very true. I am however very comfortable in my choice of fire-breathing populist :wink:
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 02:16 am
cicerone imposter wrote:


Obama should leave his wife at home in Chicago.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 02:42 am
This will spit the vote.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 03:09 am
Which this and which vote do you allude to?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:02 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:18 am
This morning, the NY Times has an interactive piece on Hillary's timeline. The paste here comes from that piece. I should point out that it contradicts my statement that the main attacks on Hillary begain with her drive to change the way medical treatment is insured and delivered. The attacks on her personally began earlier.
Quote:
THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: Issues: Women and Families; Legal Scholars See Distortion In Attacks on Hillary Clinton

By TAMAR LEWIN
Published: August 24, 1992
Hillary Clinton, whose aggressive campaign style and dedication to children's causes seemed a political asset for Democrats at the beginning of the campaign season, now finds herself under full-scale attack as the Republicans try to turn her into a symbol of anti-family values.

The overall strategy appears to be to paint Mrs. Clinton as a radical feminist, in contrast with her Republican counterparts: Barbara Bush, the quintessential grandmother, and Marilyn Quayle, who, like Mrs. Clinton, is a lawyer but has put aside her own career to support her husband's. And the focus of the attack is on two passages from Mrs. Clinton's legal writings, in law-review articles from the 1970's.

A typical attack came from Patrick J. Buchanan, who said in his speech to the Republican National Convention on Monday night that Mrs. Clinton believed that "12-year-olds should have a right to sue their parents," and that she had "compared marriage and the family as institutions to slavery and life on an Indian reservation."

Legal scholars familiar with Mrs. Clinton's work say the Republican critics are grossly distorting her positions. When the phrases in question are read in context, these scholars said, Mrs. Clinton's articles raise few eyebrows....

But the attention to Mrs. Clinton's articles is a striking indication of just how hot a political issue the debate over women's roles has become in this Presidential election....

Mrs. Clinton has long been identified with causes that conservatives dislike, starting with her work in 1974 for the House Judiciary Committee, which recommended three articles of impeachment against President Richard M. Nixon. Then she was a board member and by 1978 chairwoman of the Legal Services Corporation, a federally financed independent corporation that provides legal aid to the poor in civil cases and was anathema to the Reagan Administration...

Mrs. Clinton, a Wellesley College political science graduate who served as president of the student government, has had dozens of causes and affiliations, from serving on the board of the Children's Television Workshop, the group that produces "Sesame Street," to heading the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.

She worked for the Children's Defense Fund, a Washington-based advocacy group that lobbies on behalf of poor children, after her graduation from law school in 1973. She joined the group's board of directors in 1976 and became chairwoman in 1986.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D71E3EF937A1575BC0A964958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:37 am
another paste from that period...
Quote:
THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: Political Memo; Backlash for Hillary Clinton Puts Negative Image to Rout

By ROBIN TONER,
Published: September 24, 1992
Barbara Bush is still vastly more popular and better known in the polls, but Hillary Clinton seems to be riding a heady backlash from the Republican convention these days. Her crowds are big, her portrait on the cover of Time magazine this month was downright beatific, and months of careful maneuvering to recast her image may be finally paying off.

Mrs. Clinton, who dislikes and dismisses the notion that there was ever a strategy to warm her up, says she simply realized last spring that voters were getting a one-dimensional portrait of her.

"People started telling me there were polls showing that people didn't even know if Bill and I had a child," she said in a recent interview. "Well, in Arkansas, everybody knows Bill and I have a child, and they know we protect her and we're not keen on having her made into an object. But then I realized, that's the most important part of my life, and people don't know that about me.

"It wasn't that I changed," she said. "It was that I grew in my understanding of how better to communicate what I care about and who I am."

For much of the 1992 campaign, the endlessly ballyhooed "year of the woman" never quite extended to Mrs. Clinton. Her poll ratings were measured against Mrs. Bush's and found lacking. Her defense of her legal career last spring -- an angry "I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies" -- made even some Democrats wince. At least 20 articles in major publications this year involved some comparison between Mrs. Clinton and a grim role model for political wives: Lady Macbeth.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D7113FF937A1575AC0A964958260

Lady Macbeth! So the created media narrative of Hillary as covertly and inappropriately power-seeking, unprincipled, cold-hearted, perhaps even willing to commit regiscide for her husband (though even more for self) goes back at least this far.

And note how it is a consequence of, and wrapped up within, the right's raging against feminism (on the ideological front burner at this point in time) AND as a consequence of the related attempts to differentiate her from Barbara Bush (warm, motherly, dutiful, in her proper place as junior to her husband).
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 11:48 am
and finally, the strategic moves to counter the right's black pr campaign through toning down Hillary's feminism with all of its implicit reach towards "women are mens' equals". That strategy will become, in the narrative, an example of Hillary and Bill's 'triangulation'...falseness and covertness in service of achieving power.
Quote:
DEMOCRATS IN NEW YORK; A Softer Image for Hillary Clinton

By ALESSANDRA STANLEY,
Published: July 13, 1992
A high school student in Conway, Ark., asked Hillary Clinton a question that has bedeviled her husband's Presidential campaign for months. He wanted to know what her role would be in a Clinton Administration.

Mrs. Clinton's answer was a preview of the kind of performance she intends to give at the Democratic National Convention. "I want to be a voice for children in the White House," she said softly.

"A voice for children," a First Lady-like phrase that Mrs. Clinton has used increasingly of late, sounds as worthy and unobjectionable as Nancy Reagan's "just say no" campaign against drugs or Barbara Bush's literacy projects.

The label is well suited to Mrs. Clinton's experience as a longtime advocate of children's rights, but it is also carefully tailored to match voters' expectations of what is appropriate work for the President's wife. Recipes and Child-Rearing

After a series of gaffes that made her a lightning rod for critics, Mrs. Clinton retreated from the national stage after the New York primary. She returns to the floodlights of Madison Square Garden with her public persona fine-tuned.

She is as corny as Kansas in August as she discusses recipes, child-rearing and the Fourth of July. The Clintons no longer talk, even jokingly, of having Mrs. Clinton serve in the Cabinet. The couple's early "buy-one-get-one-free" approach soured when voters began viewing Mrs. Clinton as a hardheaded careerist who dominated her mate and seemed contemptuous of ordinary housewives. Ruefully, she acknowledged she had learned, the hard way, that Americans seem to believe that "choices are O.K. for everybody except the President's wife."


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CEEDA1631F930A25754C0A964958260
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 02:27 pm
I truly hope these posts don't come across as something like Incessant Hammer-Blows For Hillary. I really just want to try and get the past a bit more clear because, obviously, I think it has been muddied. Please just ignore if you've had too much.

Quote:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/
0 Replies
 
 

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