Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Thu 6 Dec, 2007 09:07 pm
ci: I don't know how to get in touch with them. I arrive on the Jan 1 at Ohare in the morning. Know how to get in touch with them for me?

I am really looking forward to doing this. I may go to South Carolina too. I think the fact that "older" people are interested has the campaign workers really intrigued. My cousin is not much younger than me and you know I am a Vietnam vet. I have never done this before and am charged!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 07:16 am
That's so cool Vietnamnurse! (And hello, long time no see..!) I'd love to get an account of the experience, either while it's happening or afterwards.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 09:53 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 09:54 am
Quote:
JPB
Hilary's sense of entitlement is the primary reason that I'm so against her getting the nomination. It's about HER rather than the job.


CI
That's the same thing I've been sensing about Hillary, and why I have never felt she deserved my vote.


snood
Both Hill and Bill's love of the limelight outweigh any motivation to serve anyone, IMO. It's what I've always thought about them, and still do.


You fellows are buying into, and then furthering, specific narratives about Hillary and Bill that are the product of republican strategists who set out to color your perceptions and create a consensus about the Clintons. I've just hired Italians to come to your homes and poke you in the eyes.

"Hillary's sense of entitlement"? Seriously, jpb, how could you know this? What real information do you have about her which differentiates her in this respect from Biden, say? We need to understand what job this 'sense of entitlement' criticism is doing.

The 'entitlement' idea suggests (quite purposefully) the assumption of power (or even just equality) through improper or unjust means or presumtuous means. The first born of a monarch gains automatic power, or only members of an upper class can gain power, or a jew actually has the audacity to improperly seek to join the local country club, or a woman is placed in charge of a bunch of men, etc.

In Hillary's case, this whole narrative package is meant to push our buttons...she's a woman too ambitious and she's riding the coattails of her husband like some presumptuous princess demanding a role which isn't validly her proper place.

I have to tell you that this whole thing really pisses me off. As to smarts and as to competence (which we might want to consider the important elements, for god's sake) she's surely the equal of any other candidate. So why the phuck do we buy into the "she feels entitled" meme? Argh.

Snood and CI...their "love of the limelight" greater than "motivation to serve"? What aspects of Bill's presidency or his post-presidency demonstrates that he was/is unmotivated to serve or inadequately motivated to serve? Was he lazy? Did he get nothing done because he didn't really care? Your formulation doesn't make sense by itself.

But it does if you consider what counter-strategy by the right needs to be put into effect if Bill's immense charm and popularity is to somehow be negated and made to look a bad thing... he's in it for ego reasons only...he doesn't really care about people or the US but only for the glory and self-gratification from people loving him. We'll assume that Eric Clapton or Al Green are happy to gain applause there in the limelight...this diminishes them how?



Let me point out to you how the recent flap between Hillary and Barack (his kindergarten dreams) has played in the media and why.

Barack has drawn on this narrative package about Hillary's plans/ambitions towards the presidency (towards power). In drawing on it, he too supports this set of negative associations. We understand why he does it just as we understand why the right does it. Hopefuly it will turn people from Hillary to Barack.

She in turn tries to undercut Barack's pr move through saying "See, he's just the same as Hillary". We understand why she does this.

The media run with this full steam because they love conflict and they love a horse race (all of which they explicitly acknowledge) and because the simple-mindedness of it is easy to shove into a broadcast and easy for people to understand (aside from whether it is in the least important or even accurate).

But it is, at bottom, really quite a stupid and destructive line of attack or debate for a democracy. I mean, just what the phuck is wrong or improper about a kid in kindergarten dreaming that he might become president? What the phuck is inappropriate about a woman who was a president's wife dreaming that she could hold that post too?

Now, go answer your doors.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 09:57 am
ps... I don't care who you vote for. I don't care who you support. I do care and very seriously care that we understand how we are manipulated and how we subsequently damage our own cause and hopes through playing into the hands of those who wish to manipulate us.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:21 am
I'll sidestep that last bit and let the people addressed answer -- everyone pretty much knows my answer anyway, I'd imagine.

Came here to post this:

Quote:
The Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a think tank on black issues, found many black voters aren't embracing Obama because they doubt America would elect a black President.


That's something I've referred to a few times, and something I really hope a win or a strong showing in Iowa will change.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:23 am
blatham wrote:

You fellows are buying into, and then furthering, specific narratives about Hillary and Bill that are the product of republican strategists who set out to color your perceptions and create a consensus about the Clintons. I've just hired Italians to come to your homes and poke you in the eyes.

"Hillary's sense of entitlement"? Seriously, jpb, how could you know this? What real information do you have about her which differentiates her in this respect from Biden, say? We need to understand what job this 'sense of entitlement' criticism is doing.

The 'entitlement' idea suggests (quite purposefully) the assumption of power (or even just equality) through improper or unjust means or presumtuous means. The first born of a monarch gains automatic power, or only members of an upper class can gain power, or a jew actually has the audacity to improperly seek to join the local country club, or a woman is placed in charge of a bunch of men, etc.

In Hillary's case, this whole narrative package is meant to push our buttons...she's a woman too ambitious and she's riding the coattails of her husband like some presumptuous princess demanding a role which isn't validly her proper place.

I have to tell you that this whole thing really pisses me off. As to smarts and as to competence (which we might want to consider the important elements, for god's sake) she's surely the equal of any other candidate. So why the phuck do we buy into the "she feels entitled" meme? Argh.

Snood and CI...their "love of the limelight" greater than "motivation to serve"? What aspects of Bill's presidency or his post-presidency demonstrates that he was/is unmotivated to serve or inadequately motivated to serve? Was he lazy? Did he get nothing done because he didn't really care? Your formulation doesn't make sense by itself.

But it does if you consider what counter-strategy by the right needs to be put into effect if Bill's immense charm and popularity is to somehow be negated and made to look a bad thing... he's in it for ego reasons only...he doesn't really care about people or the US but only for the glory and self-gratification from people loving him. We'll assume that Eric Clapton or Al Green are happy to gain applause there in the limelight...this diminishes them how?



Let me point out to you how the recent flap between Hillary and Barack (his kindergarten dreams) has played in the media and why.

Barack has drawn on this narrative package about Hillary's plans/ambitions towards the presidency (towards power). In drawing on it, he too supports this set of negative associations. We understand why he does it just as we understand why the right does it. Hopefuly it will turn people from Hillary to Barack.

She in turn tries to undercut Barack's pr move through saying "See, he's just the same as Hillary". We understand why she does this.

The media run with this full steam because they love conflict and they love a horse race (all of which they explicitly acknowledge) and because the simple-mindedness of it is easy to shove into a broadcast and easy for people to understand (aside from whether it is in the least important or even accurate).

But it is, at bottom, really quite a stupid and destructive line of attack or debate for a democracy. I mean, just what the phuck is wrong or improper about a kid in kindergarten dreaming that he might become president? What the phuck is inappropriate about a woman who was a president's wife dreaming that she could hold that post too?

Now, go answer your doors.


Excuse me? Who are you to assume that I've been manipulated by the media? Who are you to know that I don't have a original thought and can't make my own decisions on what "I" sense? And who the phuck are you to threaten me with you maliciousness because I have a natural disdain for Hillary Clinton -- a disdain that she was very capable of generating on her own without any help from Republicans or the media?

Eric Clapton and Al Greene are NOT trying to get access to the most powerful chair on the planet. One that I completely and utterly believe she shouldn't be sitting in.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:13 pm
Good editorial in NH's Concord Monitor today about mandates...





http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071207/OPINION/712070340/1270/NEWS97

Don't get sidetracked by the mandate debate

Monitor staff
December 07. 2007 12:40AM

The great health care mandate debate is a sideshow. Democratic presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and John Edwards insist that forcing individuals to buy a policy is crucial to providing universal health care or something close to it. Rival Barack Obama disagrees. A mandate may be necessary to force those who refuse to sign up once affordable options are available, he says, but that step should come at the end of the march to universal care, not at the beginning.

The debate has degenerated into arguments over who is or isn't being honest with voters. The question voters should focus on is which candidate, if elected, can convince enough Republicans - who will use words like "confiscation" to describe any mandate - to go along with a plan. The next question should be: Is this plan the best and most affordable path to universal coverage?

On the honesty question, when it comes to health care mandates, the edge goes to Obama. He rightly says they force people to buy something before they know what it will cost and how good it will be, and many won't comply.

A mandate could make insurance cheaper for everyone by forcing the young and healthy, a group that traditionally opts out of the system, to sign up. But making people buy insurance before good plans are affordable could lead more people to ignore the mandate. A mandate to buy insurance before much more is done to make it affordable would also mean even higher profits for insurance companies and bigger government subsidies to make coverage affordable.

Nor do mandates come close to guaranteeing universal coverage. The Massachusetts health care plan enacted when Republican Mitt Romney was governor mandates coverage. By the end of this month, every Massachusetts resident is supposed to be enrolled or pay a penalty.

The plan has caused some 200,000 previously uninsured people to sign up, according to the New York Times. But at least that many, and probably far more, have not. The $219 penalty in the form of a loss of the personal exemption on the state income tax was not severe enough to prompt everyone to enroll. That penalty is expected to grow to at least $1,000 next year.

The Massachusetts plan has two other problems that the presidential candidates should address. The state has had to exempt an estimated 20 percent of its population from the mandate because they can't afford to participate. And the cost of subsidizing insurance for the many low-income residents who signed up for the plan greatly exceeded predictions, and that's before the double-digit increase in rates insurers are expected to charge next year.

Government mandates have been used to force people to buy auto insurance, immunize their children, pay child support and pay workers a minimum wage. But compliance rates, according to the journal Health Affairs, are far from universal; just 77 to 85 percent for immunization and 30 percent for child support. Some studies have found that despite mandates, about 20 percent of people still don't buy auto insurance, which is why the rest have to pay extra to guard against uninsured motorists.

Edwards's plan would catch people who aren't enrolled when they pay the income tax or when they get health care. That might work, but it won't be cheap. About one-quarter of the nation's 47 million uninsured are baby boomers who are heading into their most costly health care years.

As for Clinton, it's easy to see why she hasn't been specific about how her plan would punish people who ignore the mandate. Far better that that particular club be crafted by a bipartisan team in Congress. But it's hard to see how Clinton or Edwards can describe their plans as covering everyone. Mandates, as their track record has proven, fall far short of guaranteeing universal participation.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:28 pm
Quote:
Excuse me? Who are you to assume that I've been manipulated by the media? Who are you to know that I don't have a original thought and can't make my own decisions on what "I" sense? And who the phuck are you to threaten me with you maliciousness because I have a natural disdain for Hillary Clinton -- a disdain that she was very capable of generating on her own without any help from Republicans or the media?

Eric Clapton and Al Greene are NOT trying to get access to the most powerful chair on the planet. One that I completely and utterly believe she shouldn't be sitting in.


There's not the slightest bit of malice in my post (or my noggin) towards you. Nor to anyone who supports other candidates rather than her. As I mentioned earlier, Obama and Al Franken are the only two campaigns we personally have donated to.

But if it is the case that you have certainty that Hillary possesses a peculiar "sense of entitlement", you ought to be able to express in some clear manner what information has brought you to this conclusion, and on how she differs from the other candidates, and how this is inappropriate.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:32 pm
blatham wrote:
You fellows are buying into, and then furthering, specific narratives about Hillary and Bill that are the product of republican strategists who set out to color your perceptions and create a consensus about the Clintons. I've just hired Italians to come to your homes and poke you in the eyes.

"Hillary's sense of entitlement"? Seriously, jpb, how could you know this? What real information do you have about her which differentiates her in this respect from Biden, say?

Actually, the "sense of entitlement" came from the link that I provided. And that was about an unnamed Democratic operative who got it from discussions with Clinton staffers talking about Obama.
    "It's his presumptuousness," this operative says. "That he thinks he can deny her the nomination. Who is he to try to do that?" You mean, he's, uh, uppity? "Yes."
That's not a Republican meme, those are Democrats talking about other Democrats. So yes, it's possible for Democrats to think, on their own, that Hillary Clinton has a sense of entitlement about the presidency.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:45 pm
Thanks, joe, for letting blatham know our choice isn't influenced by the conservative party. I don't waste time listening to FOX or read conservative blogs. I make my conclusions from keeping my eyes and ears open on what the candidates themselves opine, but will admit to reading most of nimh's posts on a2k.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:01 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
blatham wrote:
You fellows are buying into, and then furthering, specific narratives about Hillary and Bill that are the product of republican strategists who set out to color your perceptions and create a consensus about the Clintons. I've just hired Italians to come to your homes and poke you in the eyes.

"Hillary's sense of entitlement"? Seriously, jpb, how could you know this? What real information do you have about her which differentiates her in this respect from Biden, say?

Actually, the "sense of entitlement" came from the link that I provided. And that was about an unnamed Democratic operative who got it from discussions with Clinton staffers talking about Obama.
    "It's his presumptuousness," this operative says. "That he thinks he can deny her the nomination. Who is he to try to do that?" You mean, he's, uh, uppity? "Yes."
That's not a Republican meme, those are Democrats talking about other Democrats. So yes, it's possible for Democrats to think, on their own, that Hillary Clinton has a sense of entitlement about the presidency.


I've read the piece joe, and I like Corn a lot. But the "entitlement" meme did not originate in or with Corn's piece. It has a much earlier pedigree. And we have to note that Corn is not referring to Hillary as a person or to the stuff in her noggin, but to people in her campaign and their response to the Obama candidacy, clearly a potential upset to their plans.

Look, I understand that dems or anyone else can form their own opinions. Republicans who dislike Bush aren't necessarily influenced by the left's public relations efforts and strategies. But Bush has a huge and consistent and clear record of deceits, incompetence, cronyism, etc. There's lots of good data on which to dislike Bush.

Where is the comparable record of actual blunders or lies etc regarding Hillary? On what basis, objective and tangible, can we hold that Hillary is beset by some unsual and vulgar species of ambition? One can disagree with policy positions (say, re Iran) but that doesn't account for the visceral reactions I see.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:08 pm
I imagine that sense of entitlement may have been one of the things that kept their marriage together during all the years of Bill's dallying.

I don't think it is necessarily a sense of entitlement about the presidency though. I think (and agree) that Bill owes her a huge debt for her role in his rising political life. Instead of pursuing her own political asperations, she kept food on the table and the bills paid while he toured around the backwoods of Arkansas shaking hands, meeting and greeting folks. Now it is her turn and time for him to bring home the bacon while she harvests the seeds they planted together for her own political goals.


It really isn't all that different from many marriages of that era where the woman put her asperations on hold and went to work to support the man through college on the promise that the man would do the same for her once he graduated.



Hillary's problem is that she doesn't have much else as a selling point for a presidential candidacy other than the fact that she was married to Bill while he rose to the presidency.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:13 pm
Butrflynet, I get a different sense from the Hillary speeches and campaign. The feeling I get is that "she earned" running for president based on her a) experience in the white house, and b) as a senator from NY.

I just ain't buying that crxp.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:13 pm
blatham wrote:
But if it is the case that you have certainty that Hillary possesses a peculiar "sense of entitlement", you ought to be able to express in some clear manner what information has brought you to this conclusion, and on how she differs from the other candidates, and how this is inappropriate.

joefromchicago, responding to blatham, wrote:
Actually, the "sense of entitlement" came from the link that I provided. And that was about an unnamed Democratic operative who got it from discussions with Clinton staffers talking about Obama.

blatham, responding to joefromchicago, wrote:
I've read the piece joe, and I like Corn a lot. But the "entitlement" meme did not originate in or with Corn's piece. It has a much earlier pedigree.

Blatham, you know how much I hate to argue with you. But this time, you really have been a naughty boy. You changed rules in mid-argument. First, you challenged your correspondents to show the information that brought them to their conclusions. Then, when Joe reminded you of his source, you made it about where the entitlement meme came from.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:15 pm
Quote:
Hillary's problem is that she doesn't have much else as a selling point for a presidential candidacy other than the fact that she was married to Bill while he rose to the presidency.


I think that is manifestly not the case. The breadth and depth of her policy knowledge and her knowledge of international affairs and history is what has carried her through the debates while maintaining a high level in the polls. Further, her record in the senate, for work load, competence, and ability to work with others including republicans in order to get the work of her job done has received broad acknowledgement.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:19 pm
If Hillary has been successful in the Senate, it sure looks like a nonproductive Senate to this observer. The GOP sank most initiatives by the democrats for the past year.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:20 pm
Thomas wrote:
blatham wrote:
But if it is the case that you have certainty that Hillary possesses a peculiar "sense of entitlement", you ought to be able to express in some clear manner what information has brought you to this conclusion, and on how she differs from the other candidates, and how this is inappropriate.

joefromchicago, responding to blatham, wrote:
Actually, the "sense of entitlement" came from the link that I provided. And that was about an unnamed Democratic operative who got it from discussions with Clinton staffers talking about Obama.

blatham, responding to joefromchicago, wrote:
I've read the piece joe, and I like Corn a lot. But the "entitlement" meme did not originate in or with Corn's piece. It has a much earlier pedigree.

Blatham, you know how much I hate to argue with you. But this time, you really have been a naughty boy. You changed rules in mid-argument. First, you challenged your correspondents to show the information that brought them to their conclusions. Then, when Joe reminded you of his source, you made it about where the entitlement meme came from.


But the meme didn't arise with Corn. Nor, as I said, is Corn actually talking about Hillary.

Now, if it is the case that joe or jpb or others gained the notion that Hillary has a "sense of entitlement" only after reading Corn...that they'd never entertained such a notion previously...then your point would have merit.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:21 pm
I hope and I wish that all approved, voters cross the streets and vote according to thier political views.
I am quite curious.
i know i wil be disappointed as usual.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 7 Dec, 2007 05:22 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
If Hillary has been successful in the Senate, it sure looks like a nonproductive Senate to this observer. The GOP sank most initiatives by the democrats for the past year.


But then CI, you have to fold in every other candidate who presently sits in that 'unproductive' senate. Yes? The same indictment must apply.
0 Replies
 
 

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