blatham
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 01:30 pm
Quote:
Michelle Obama: "Imagine our family on that inaugural platform. America will look at itself differently. The world will look at America differently. There is no other candidate who is going to do that for our country. You know that."

--David Kurtz
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Ain't that just smack on the money? And it is a very bright framing, I think.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 01:33 pm
blatham wrote:
Yes, but only some, and really it is of a tenor quite different from what freeduck expresses. And it is a recent piece yet I'll presume that freeduck's notions evolved over a longish period of time.


Not really, no. I've only just read the article that Soz referenced and she's right, it does illustrate some of what I'm talking about. But it's the recent debate and the resultant spin that put me over the edge. And the dust up with Novak at the center... how convenient an opportunity to make Obama look naive compared to her and really drive home that experience line.

Quote:
All I really wish to do here is encourage FD to, so well as is possible, reflect upon the sources of those ideas.


I will. I understand what a target she is for the right wing and that there is a lot of misinformation about her, and I do think both she and Bill were treated unfairly in the 90s. But she's no innocent bystander. I freely admit that a lot of my ideas are based on not much more than personal feelings and hunches. However, I don't think I stole them from the Republican play book.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 01:36 pm
Quote:
But it's the recent debate and the resultant spin that put me over the edge. And the dust up with Novak at the center... how convenient an opportunity to make Obama look naive compared to her and really drive home that experience line.
I have to zip away to do some renovations on our office. But could you try to clarify just what you refer to re the debate/spin and the Novak thing.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 01:45 pm
blatham wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
I think it's her dirty tricks. They're starting to backfire.


Come on now, freeduck. Do you really want to be forwarding the fundamental slime vector?

I have no strong allegiance to the woman but I have, as my greatest passion in all of this, the marginalization or destruction of a political movement which has gotten itself into power through such Machiavellian and amoral means as these slime attacks.

Translation, you will overlook the truth in the interests of furthering your own particular idealogy.

I love how you use the term, "slime," blatham, but the truth is the truth. You can label it slime, but again, you willingly blind yourself to reality so that your idealogy can win.

I would remind you that blind adherence to an idealogy ahead of moral principles of right and wrong is a very dangerous thing, indeed. I would think that you would have learned that from history?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 01:46 pm
Sure, sorry. I watched the last debate, which I don't usually do. When it was over, the post-debate analysis began to sound suspiciously like a Hillary campaign commercial. It was all about Hillary all the time. I don't know if the actual debate was rigged, but the post-debate "analysis" clearly was. I had to keep checking that I was actually watching CNN and not Fox news because the experts didn't seem to have seen the same debate that I saw. All of the clips shown were of Hillary's zingers to Obama and Edwards, but none of their responses to same were shown. One of the correspondents actually parroted the campaign line when talking about one of Obama's supposed mistakes in the debate -- "that's the difference between him and a really experience candidate like Senator Clinton."

The Novak dust up, that's the one that's been in the news recently where he reported that the Clinton campaign had some dirt on Obama, Obama called them out and said put up or shut up, and they said, poo poo, the silly little inexperienced boy fell into a trap.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 09:46 pm
okie wrote:
The Clintons don't have a "slime" machine, blatham? Whenever I check into this forum, I am continually amazed and incredulous at how such obvious, plain as day things apparently escape the vast intellectual capacity of the arts and croissant crowd.


yes, george.......uh, I mean oakie. Ditto again anyone?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 09:54 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Sure, sorry. I watched the last debate, which I don't usually do. When it was over, the post-debate analysis began to sound suspiciously like a Hillary campaign commercial. It was all about Hillary all the time. I don't know if the actual debate was rigged, but the post-debate "analysis" clearly was. I had to keep checking that I was actually watching CNN and not Fox news because the experts didn't seem to have seen the same debate that I saw. All of the clips shown were of Hillary's zingers to Obama and Edwards, but none of their responses to same were shown. One of the correspondents actually parroted the campaign line when talking about one of Obama's supposed mistakes in the debate -- "that's the difference between him and a really experience candidate like Senator Clinton."

The Novak dust up, that's the one that's been in the news recently where he reported that the Clinton campaign had some dirt on Obama, Obama called them out and said put up or shut up, and they said, poo poo, the silly little inexperienced boy fell into a trap.


Did you see the debate before last on MSNBC? Chris Mathews was distorting everything Hillary said. And he is still doing it. I take it he's an Obama man. In any case, I doubt CNN is pro-Hillary. Apparently the commentators thought she did well. It always impresses me how personal bias colors the way we hear the debates and the commentators. I'm no exception. We are ruled by the amygdala, not the cortex. It takes dedicated work and determination to over come feelings and aim for some small degree of objective thought. So often we don't feel like bothering.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 20 Nov, 2007 10:46 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Sure, sorry. I watched the last debate, which I don't usually do. When it was over, the post-debate analysis began to sound suspiciously like a Hillary campaign commercial. It was all about Hillary all the time. I don't know if the actual debate was rigged, but the post-debate "analysis" clearly was. I had to keep checking that I was actually watching CNN and not Fox news because the experts didn't seem to have seen the same debate that I saw. All of the clips shown were of Hillary's zingers to Obama and Edwards, but none of their responses to same were shown. One of the correspondents actually parroted the campaign line when talking about one of Obama's supposed mistakes in the debate -- "that's the difference between him and a really experience candidate like Senator Clinton."

The Novak dust up, that's the one that's been in the news recently where he reported that the Clinton campaign had some dirt on Obama, Obama called them out and said put up or shut up, and they said, poo poo, the silly little inexperienced boy fell into a trap.


Thanks. On the Novak bit, I think Obama did fall into a trap. Novak's source, he later clarified, isn't with the campaign. Novak says he is a Democrat. If the source isn't with the campaign, then Novak has this third hand (or more...how does the source know?) and with no other source to verify (or he'd have mentioned that). In other words, Novak is really doing a Drudge here. And this is a traditional way of pushing slime into the discourse, no attribution, no verification and no means to verify..."I have it on good authority that...".

And consider what is achieved in terms of negative PR in this piece. It is suggested that the Clinton campaign is out digging dirt on opponents AND Obama IS dirty. It's a negative PR twofer. Both the top two dem candidates are made to look dirty. And that's a classic trick of this game. Don't forget that Novak is pretty entrenched in the conservative movement (his son runs Regnery, the house that publishes Ann Coulter and Limbaugh and all the other rightwing propagandists).

Obama, I think, ought not to have bought into this as he apparently did initially. The proper direction for attack would have been Novak... "Without evidence or attribution others can check, this is slime and the worst sort of behavior from a newspaper reporter."

As regards the debate and pundit chatter after...my take was different than yours (mind, I missed the first hour). According to Eric Alterman who was there, the audience was not well controlled with people yelling out at times. It seemed to me that the audience was supporting Hillary more than the others but in that district her support is twice that of Barack. I did not think that CNN acted favorably to her in the questioning. My perception was that they were much more concerned with themselves and their reputations than anything else. They did push the narrative that "Hillary is back!" but I knew they would do that unless she had a stroke because the horserace is their game (excitement, draws viewers, ad dollars).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 06:41 am
Lola wrote:
okie wrote:
The Clintons don't have a "slime" machine, blatham? Whenever I check into this forum, I am continually amazed and incredulous at how such obvious, plain as day things apparently escape the vast intellectual capacity of the arts and croissant crowd.


yes, george.......uh, I mean oakie. Ditto again anyone?


It's safe to say I ditto negatives about okie about 90 percent of the time.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 09:28 am
Lola wrote:

Did you see the debate before last on MSNBC? Chris Mathews was distorting everything Hillary said. And he is still doing it. I take it he's an Obama man.


Didn't see it and I have no reason to doubt what you say.

Quote:
In any case, I doubt CNN is pro-Hillary. Apparently the commentators thought she did well. It always impresses me how personal bias colors the way we hear the debates and the commentators. I'm no exception. We are ruled by the amygdala, not the cortex. It takes dedicated work and determination to over come feelings and aim for some small degree of objective thought. So often we don't feel like bothering.


Yes, I'm aware of the way personal bias colors things. However, the post-debate analysis was incredibly skewed. I'm sure they thought she did well, especially in comparison with how she reportedly did in the previous debate. But to hear the analysts tell it, she mopped the floor with Obama and Edwards, and that's just not the way I saw it, and the debate transcript doesn't bare it out either. I wish I could find a transcript of the post-debate analysis to illustrate what I'm talking about. I don't think it's merely my bias or theirs coloring perception. I like to think I'm observant enough to allow for fluctuations in perception while recognizing when I'm being manipulated. And I don't have any doubt that I and all viewers were being manipulated.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 09:34 am
blatham wrote:

And consider what is achieved in terms of negative PR in this piece. It is suggested that the Clinton campaign is out digging dirt on opponents AND Obama IS dirty. It's a negative PR twofer.


It's a twofer for Hillary too. She has dirt but refuses to use it, so she's actually taking the moral high ground. In the meantime, Republicans are attacking her -- that means they are afraid she will win. And Obama steps into a trap that she is "experienced" enough to dodge. I guess that makes it a threefer. The message is clear: she's the only one who can beat those slimy Republicans. And Novak is a brilliant choice -- what Democrat would take him seriously and/or believe that any Democratic campaign would talk to him? Of course, I could be wrong. But I'm asking myself who benefits from this dust up, and clearly it's Hillary.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 09:54 am
FreeDuck wrote:
blatham wrote:

And consider what is achieved in terms of negative PR in this piece. It is suggested that the Clinton campaign is out digging dirt on opponents AND Obama IS dirty. It's a negative PR twofer.


It's a twofer for Hillary too. She has dirt but refuses to use it, so she's actually taking the moral high ground. In the meantime, Republicans are attacking her -- that means they are afraid she will win. And Obama steps into a trap that she is "experienced" enough to dodge. I guess that makes it a threefer. The message is clear: she's the only one who can beat those slimy Republicans. And Novak is a brilliant choice -- what Democrat would take him seriously and/or believe that any Democratic campaign would talk to him? Of course, I could be wrong. But I'm asking myself who benefits from this dust up, and clearly it's Hillary.


FD
Take your last sentence... "Hillary is the one to gain". Please note that that is not very well supported by your own reaction here. She has clearly not gained in your estimation of her. And that is because, if I may say, you took the bit in red from Novak (he's credible?) and accepted it as true or as probable.

Consequence...for one, you and I are arguing.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 10:48 am
blatham wrote:

Take your last sentence... "Hillary is the one to gain". Please note that that is not very well supported by your own reaction here. She has clearly not gained in your estimation of her.


I guess I don't consider my own opinion as in any way representative of popular or Democratic party primary voter opinion.

Quote:
And that is because, if I may say, you took the bit in red from Novak (he's credible?) and accepted it as true or as probable.


I don't accept him as truthful, however I do think there is a grain of truth in every lie. But to clarify my language, I wasn't saying that I accept what he said is true, I was illustrating why I think the message was a threefer for Hillary. I should have said "it is suggested that", as you did, to differentiate what I believe from what was forwarded.

Quote:
Consequence...for one, you and I are arguing.


Pity, but I don't mind.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 11:09 am
Quote:
University of New Hampshire political scientist Dante Scala said Obama needs to do better among middle-class liberals.

"They've got status jobs. They are professionals. They are lawyers. They've got a college education or more. That should be Obama's core constituency, and I think they right now are trying to figure out what to do," he said.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 07:16 pm
Yeah, because what Obama really needs to do right now is to even more become the candidate of the sophisticated classes, the ones with higher education and "status jobs".

It's not like he doesnt already suffer from the suspicion of being a Hart-Bradley-Tsongas kind of candidate, the candidate of the well-heeled idealists who have clean hands but wont win, and who care more about principles and cultural liberalism than about bread-and-butter issues - let's make him even more associated with urban blue-state professionals.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Nov, 2007 08:56 pm
Quote: blatham
Quote:
Consequence...for one, you and I are arguing.


freeduck Pity
Quote:
but I don't mind.


No, me neither in one sense.

But let me finish off this way. I'd be delighted with any one of these candidates in the presidency, particularly three of them. Edwards forwards the sort of progressive policies that I want all of them to voice and care about. An Obama presidency could really transform America and beyond. And I've expressed earlier the strengths and promise that I think Hillary would bring.

But in the last year, you won't find a seriously negative comment that I've made about any of the whole works of them. Because that's the enemy's game. It is slime, it's innuendo, and it is self-defeating. If we like candidate A, then let's pump him/her up and try to demonstrate the talents and abilities we see.

Now I'll shut up.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 22 Nov, 2007 05:39 am
blatham wrote:
But in the last year, you won't find a seriously negative comment that I've made about any of the whole works of them. Because that's the enemy's game. It is slime, it's innuendo, and it is self-defeating. If we like candidate A, then let's pump him/her up and try to demonstrate the talents and abilities we see.

Isnt that a surefire way to shut down all critical debate within one's own camp - even to shut down or at least instinctively limit one's own capacity to critically evaluate one's own side's flaws and actions?

It sounds like a sure way to shut down even justified criticisms of one's own side and candidate, including criticisms that could still highlight and warn of looming problems. When the whole primary process is about probing and testing one's own potential candidates for potential flaws and problems so as to choose the best one available. If you dont scrutinize, test and criticize your own candidate now in this phase, you'll be ill-prepared for the criticisms, including justified criticisms, he or she will face from the other side in the general election campaign. I mean, the only preparation you've done for that will then be the defensive cramp of shouting foul play at whatever might come.

Of course one can counter that our ability to influence what candidate is chosen and what his/her actions and strategies will be is near an absolute zero, but then so is our ability to do any harm with whatever criticisms we might come up with.

I mean, I find this quite a surprising stance from you Blatham, even though it does make explicit something that I've often found awkward in a hard to define way in earlier posts of yours. I mean, you have always been at the forefront of rightly criticizing the conservatives here (and at large) for their strident instinct to close the rank at the cost of all and any critical self-evaluation. Both when it comes to the unity of their own party and movement and when it comes to their opinions about how we should all stand behind our country, president and army no matter what transpires about its actions in office or in Iraq - the "my country right or wrong" tack. You have always articulately criticised this mindset and argued that true patriotism, for example, is all about seeing and criticising one's own country's flaws and misdeeds as well, so as to make one's own country a better place and hold it to a higher standard. In the same way, you have mocked some of the fiercer conservatives here for being unable to openly and honestly review the actions of their own side with any critical awareness.

Yet that's exactly what you seem to advocate for here: whatever critical thoughts we might have about any of our candidates, let's keep them inside and stand in solidarity with them for the duration of the race. That argument seems reminiscent of conservatives decrying the actions of critical souls who dare criticise the country or its president or its soldiers actions while they are abroad - the whole thing about keeping the dirty linen inside and not embolding the enemy.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 22 Nov, 2007 11:12 am
nimh

Sorry. I wrote "no serious disagreement" and that is poorly put. I meant no comments which suggested flaws of character or which implied nefarious or pathological intent. That is the vector that the slime is carried on and I really, truly do not consider it accurate as regards any one of these people. (I don't consider it accurate as regards any on the Republican side either, other than certain aspects of Giuliani).

As another example, I really haven't accused any of them of being so poorly prepared for this job that they ought not to be considered for it. Of course, that's because I don't think that would be so.

I didn't mean to imply more than that. Policy disagreements, differences in talents and education and experience and electibility are the substantive issues and the ones we do have to talk about. And we'll disagree.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 22 Nov, 2007 02:48 pm
blatham wrote:
Sorry. I wrote "no serious disagreement" and that is poorly put. I meant no comments which suggested flaws of character or which implied nefarious or pathological intent.

What if there are flaws of character to be considered?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 23 Nov, 2007 09:53 am
nimh wrote:
blatham wrote:
Sorry. I wrote "no serious disagreement" and that is poorly put. I meant no comments which suggested flaws of character or which implied nefarious or pathological intent.

What if there are flaws of character to be considered?


Perhaps this is the greyest of areas.

It may be, as george and spendi and other catholic oddballs believe, that each of us enters this life with a dirty record. I don't think it so, considering the notion to have been promulgated by those early church recruiters. It's all probably best conceived of as 'original spin'.

But by the time we are adults, we've all had more than sufficient time to develop the worst parts of ourselves. Flaws...we all have them. So it is a matter of thinking about which ones we definitely do not want in a leader (lack of curiosity, lack of empathy, easily corruptible, ideological extremism particularly when dishonestly hidden, etc) and the ones that don't much matter (loves blow jobs too much, a music library with lots of the Eagles and no Tom Waits, etc).

Attacks on a candidates 'character' are part of the game presently. So its a matter of our thinking about what we personally find important or irrelevant. And it is also a matter of being acutely conscious of the attempts that WILL be made for us to think poorly of a candidate based on nothing much past a manufactured 'truthiness'.
0 Replies
 
 

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