Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:53 am
Lyndon Johnson is still too close to our lifetimes for his genius to be recognized. John and Bobby Kennedy just p*ssed people off in the South. Johnson, however, passed Kennedy's two major legislative programs--Civil Rights and Social Security disability and survivors benefits--because he knew where all the bodies were buried, and he was a pre-eminent backroom politician. Kennedy failed to pass his agenda because his only appeal was charismatic. Johnson succeeded in passing it because he was ready, willind and able to put the screws to the opposition.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:53 am
sozobe wrote:
I want one who is both skilled at the game and who will, by playing the game well, get important stuff accomplished.

Yes -- and like Lieberman, Clinton, and Kerry, you hold political views that are currently electable. I only suggest there's a correlation here. I'm not suggesting that Obama is doing anything wrong.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:54 am
Yes Set I agree totally re Johnson, a very skilled politician.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:56 am
Ah, OK.

From Set's characterization, sounds like I want another Lyndon Johnson, yeah.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:00 am
sozobe wrote:
From Set's characterization, sounds like I want another Lyndon Johnson, yeah.

Well, you already have a president who, like Johnson, invented a casus belli, invaded a foreign country, and lied about it to the American people. What are you complaining about all the time? Razz
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sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:03 am
Oh dear. Laughing
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:04 am
Thomas wrote:
sozobe wrote:
From Set's characterization, sounds like I want another Lyndon Johnson, yeah.

Well, you already have a president who, like Johnson, invented a casus belli, invaded a foreign country, and lied about it to the American people. What are you complaining about all the time? Razz


How very wicked of you, Thomas . . .
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:12 am
sozobe wrote:
Can anyone win without playing the game? (Sincere question...)
Only if one runs against the system (game) itself. The megalomaniac, they said was crazy, who quit for a portion of his campaign... with a running mate no one ever heard of or heard, still managed to garner 19% of the popular vote. The more I think on it; the more I think I'd really love to see an anti-establishment-moderate 3rd party that promised to attack the system's corruption, while borrowing the best ideals from both parties. Take McCain or even Giuliani with him and I think the public would respond with overwhelming approval (though I imagine he'd have to take the VP route to the oval office). I suspect it would be strangely harder, not easier, to roll with the Democratic Party alone in 2008... since they are hardly more trusted, or trustworthy, than the Republican Party. I can't think of a Democrat that would add sufficient credibility to the ticket without spoiling the the... the (illusion? Confused ) that the corrupt system could be fixed.

Another thing to think about: Joe Biden. I had previously written him off as just another Kerry-like blowhard that will do more to turn off the public when he speaks than anything else (his behavior at confirmation hearings has been deplorable). Then I saw him on Bill Maher (of all places) and was taken aback to hear the man make lots of sense in a genuine, likable, even respectable kind of way. If his handlers can lead him away from the tired ABB-type rhetoric; I think he may very well be a viable contender. Despite his long Senate record; I believe he could do a more convincing job of changing his stripes than Hillary (who I don't believe will eventually be believed). Here again though; I don't know that Obama would want to risk being permanently stained by the mud that Biden will be buried in. While I think Obama would be an awesome catch for Biden's ticket; the reverse isn't as true because he'd have to abandon any corrupt-system angles since Joe's the definition of "insider".

Barring something radical (like my first paragraph), 2012 is starting to look more logical to me all the time. Who is the Democratic John McCain or Giuliani?
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snood
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:16 am
I saw that appearance on Maher - glad someone brought it up - and was also impressed. The thing he said that grabbed me most was something like "We don't have leadership that has demanded the things from the American people - that they are so willing to do!"

Biden really sounded good - almost like someone thinking originally; almost like someone with courage.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:19 am
If 2012 was when a two-term president was wrapping up, I agree that 2012 would be better than 2008 for Obama. But a couple of analyses have been cited here showing that he might not have a real chance after 2008, and I agree. In 2012, there will be an incumbent up for re-election, and 2016 might be just too far down the line in terms of a long and winding senatorial record and failure to strike when the iron is hot.

I'm not sure now what would happen with an Obama third-party ticket. I doubt he'd do it, for one thing.

Biden is fine, I don't object to him much, I just don't think he has a legitimate chance at the presidency.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:21 am
Maybe Biden for VP then... ;-)

I think that if Obama is at the top of the ticket, someone with a ton of experience should be VP, and Biden has that.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:22 am
sozobe wrote:
But a couple of analyses have been cited here showing that he might not have a real chance after 2008, and I agree.


That's too strong -- the analyses made sense to me, but I'm not sure.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:23 am
Agreed Snood. His argument that Bush didn't utilize the good will of the American people after 9-11 to make some momentous internal changes (without focusing on the ABB-slam) rang as true as it seemed candid. At worst; an excellent performance.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:30 am
Those analyses made sense to me too Soz, but it's hard to imagine Obama gaining the momentum to sit on top of a ticket with a pro beneath him. Just seems too juxtaposed to me. Though I freely volunteer that this independent would be far more likely to sway that way if that was the case.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 10:31 am
Once again, though, the Kennedy/Johnson ticket comes to mind. Kennedy was a charming tyro in the Senate--Johnson was the old timer, a Democratic Party insider for thirty years.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 10 Apr, 2006 06:15 pm
That is interesting, isn't it? I'm too young to compare a Kennedy/Johnson ticket to an Obama/? ticket. By your estimation, Set, would you say the country's mood was similar? I mean; was there a fresh-face for a fresh-start type of desire in Joe-public? I really have to believe there is now.

In my lifetime; only Ronald Reagan seemed to be the President he campaigned to be… in that he campaigned to bring the country military strength… and did. I was a kid then, but vividly remember his commercials, and the follow-through is vividly evidenced by our subsequent/current military supremacy… and the accompanying debt for same.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 24 Apr, 2006 11:42 am
Obama is going to be speaking here in Columbus.

I just made reservations.

After those are confirmed I'm going to request an interpreter.

Having an interpreter is a great way to get the speaker's attention -- the terp is usually right next to the speaker, the speaker usually wants to know why, the terp indicates the deaf person/ people in the audience, I smile and nod...

Then of course I have an in for after-speech mingling...

Plot plot plot...
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Mon 24 Apr, 2006 11:47 am
Oooh, I'm impressed by the strategy. I'm interested to hear your account of the experience.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 24 Apr, 2006 11:54 am
O'Bill asks (as though he can expect me to know):

Quote:
That is interesting, isn't it? I'm too young to compare a Kennedy/Johnson ticket to an Obama/? ticket. By your estimation, Set, would you say the country's mood was similar? I mean; was there a fresh-face for a fresh-start type of desire in Joe-public? I really have to believe there is now.


The country was not necessarily disenchanted with the Republicans. They had taken over the Congress after the Second World War, mostly through voter tedium vis-à-vis more than a decade of Democratic control. Eisenhower was a very popular guy, but Nixon was less than enchanting to the American public in comparison. Nonetheless, Nixon had a good shot. That campaign saw the first Presidential Candidate debate. Those who watched it on television gave Kennedy a slight edge. Those who listened to it on the radio gave Nixon the edge, and by a larger margin. Kennedy proved the value of high profile charismatic campaigning, but it was still a closely run race. Kennedy tackled the issue of his Catholicism early on in the campaign, and did so in West Virginia, a Protestant bastion, but a state in which his economic views played well. It was smart campaigning.

This campaign differs in that Bush does not enjoy the image that Ike did, and no Republican candidate is likely to want to be seen as Bush's hand-picked successor. Addtionally, Obama's charisma will not have the profound effect that Kennedy's did, as Kennedy was the first candidate to project that kind of charisma effectively (if you leave out FDR, who originally got elected when the country was in a mood of desperation).

I don't think the two campaigns (if there is an Obama run) would compare. I was addressing soley the proposition of putting Obama in harness with an "old hand."

Quote:
In my lifetime; only Ronald Reagan seemed to be the President he campaigned to be… in that he campaigned to bring the country military strength… and did. I was a kid then, but vividly remember his commercials, and the follow-through is vividly evidenced by our subsequent/current military supremacy… and the accompanying debt for same.


I have a low opinion of Reagan and the consequences of his terms in office, so i will refrain from comment. Not germane to this thread . . .
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Mon 24 Apr, 2006 05:50 pm
From an unabashedly liberal site - Counterpunch. But I think the thoughts on Obama's "safeness" are valid...

http://www.counterpunch.org/

Obama is one of those politicians whom journalists like to decorate with words as "adroit" or "politically adept" because you can actually see him trimming to the wind, the way you see a conjuror of moderate skill shove the rabbit back up his sleeve. Above all he is concerned with the task of reassuring the masters of the Democratic Party, and beyond that, the politico-corporate establishment, that he is safe. Whatever bomb might have been in his head has long since been dis-armed. He's never going to blow up in the face of anyone of consequence.

There are plenty of black people like that in the Congress now. After a decade or so of careful corporate funding, as the Black Congressional Caucus is sinking under the weight of Democratic Leadership Copuncil clones like Artur Davis of Alabama, Albert Wynn of Maryland, Sanford Bishop and David Scott of Georgia, William Jefferson of Louisiana, Gregory Meeks of New York, all assiduously selling for a mess of pottage the interests of the voters who sent them to Washington.

Obama has done exactly the same thing. He lobbed up the first signal flare during the run-up to his 2004 senate race, when his name began to feature on Democratic Leadership Council literature as one of the hundred Democratic leaders to watch . That indispensable publication The Black Commentator raised a stink about this. "It would be a shame," wrote the Commentator's Bruce Dixon, " if he is in the process of becoming 'ideologically freed' from the opinions of the African American and other Democrats whose votes he needs to win."

Obama wriggled for a while, sending out clouds of mush speak such as "I believe that politics in any democracy is a game of addition, not subtraction", but the Commentator held his feet to the fire. They posed Obama three "bright-line" questions:
1. Do you favor the withdrawal of the United States from NAFTA? Will you in the Senate introduce or sponsor legislation toward that end?
2. Do you favor the adoption of a single payer system of universal health care to extend the availability of quality health care to all persons in this country? Will you in the Senate introduce or sponsor legislation toward that end?
3. Would you have voted against the October 10 congressional resolution allowing the president to use unilateral force against Iraq?
This was in 2003, when Obama clearly felt he could not afford to endanger left support by answering anything other than Yes on the questions and so he duly told the Black Commentator that he would stop hanging his hat in the halls of the DLC and would tell them to remove his name from their 100-To-Watch list.

Hence his press man, Vietor's, sensitivity to my allusion in that last to Obama's "mentor" being Senator Joe Lieberman. As a freshman senator, Vietor insisted, Obama had been assigned Lieberman as "mentor". Read the Hartford Courant and you'll find Lieberman boasting that Obama picked him.
Either way, it's obvious that Obama could have brokered a different mentor if he'd so desired it, same way he could have declined to go and tout for Lieberman at that Democratic Party dinner in Connecticut at the end of March. But he clearly didn't, because he wanted to send out a reassuring signal, same way as his Political Action Committee, the Hope Fund's, is raising money for 14 of his senatorial colleagues--ten of whom are DLC in orientation, which is half of the DLC presence in the Senate.

There has been a more substantive signal, keenly savored by the corporate world, where Obama voted for "tort reform", thus making it far harder for people to get redress or compensation. Actually the Yes vote in the Senate was filibuster-proof, s Obama could have voted either way without it making anydifference. He just wanted the top people to know how safe he was.

A woman from Illinois wrote to me after my last column on Obama, agreeing with my reproofs, and saying:
Here's an example of how the position and adulation from those in Washington have gone to his head. I'm involved with the Springfield (IL) Urban League. We began asking almost immediately after the election if he could be the keynote speaker at our annual fundraising dinner--which was held last fall! His staff delayed positive responses (even as we continued to call and inquire) until it was too late to get on the schedule of any nationally recognized 'celebrity.' (Thankfully, the attendance was excellent and the fundraiser our best ever--despite the brush off we received from Obama.) Let me reiterate: Barack Obama blew off speaking before an audience of 500 primarily African-American voters in Illinois--the state he purports to represent. He's spoken here lots of times prior to his election to the Senate, and even since. But he blew us off for nothing more than continued visits to states that did not elect him to stump for sometimes-questionable democrats--like the Lieberman situation."

Some hopeful progressives still say, "Obama has to bob and weave, while positioning himself at the high table as the people's champion." But in his advance to the high table he is divesting himself of all legitimate claims to be any sort of popular champion, as opposed to another safe black, like Condoleezza Rice (whom Obama voted to confirm. The Empire relishes such servants.

And so Obama, the constitutional law professor, voted to close off any filibuster of Alito and fled Senator Russell Feingold's motion to censure the President, declaring: "my and Senator Feingold's view is not unanimous. Some constitutional scholars and lower court opinions support the president's argument that he has inherent authority to go outside the bounds of the law in monitoring the activities of suspected terrorists. The question is whether the president understood the law and knowingly flaunted it."

That's not the question at all. The vitality of the Constitution does not rest on whether Bush understands it, any more that the integrity of the Criminal Code depends on whether the President has ever read a line of any statute. We can safely assume that he doesn't and he hasn't.
And so also did Obama, the constitutional law professor, vote Yea on March 2 to final passage of the U.S.A PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act, unlike ten of his Democratic colleagues.

Vietor, Obama's man, laughed derisively at my complaint at the end of my last column how most of her Democratic colleagues had fled Cynthia McKinney. "She apologized", Vietor cried, as though that settled the matter. In fact the betrayal of McKinney, particularly by her black colleagues, was an appalling and important political moment rewarding the racism showered on McKinney and the ongoing implosion of the Congressional Black Caucus. Obama, of course, distanced himself from her too.
0 Replies
 
 

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