cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 3 Sep, 2007 10:21 am
Bert told me.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 3 Sep, 2007 08:00 pm
It looks like Labor Day weekend was an occasion for Hillary and Obama to sharpen and profile their contrasts.

I think they both bring a coherent and persuasive argument, and find myself agreeing sometimes with one ("results, not rhetoric"), then with the other ("it's going to take more than just a change in parties to truly turn this country around") - even as the two sharpen their opposite messages. They've certainly both got some winner lines.

Quote:
Obama critiques Clinton

Democrat Barack Obama on Monday sharpened his critique of lead rival Hillary Rodham Clinton, warning against a return to "divisive, special interest politics" that had demoralized the country even before President Bush took office.

"As bad as this administration has been, it's going to take more than just a change in parties to truly turn this country around," Obama told supporters at a Labor Day rally.

"George Bush and Dick Cheney may have turned divisive, special interest politics into an art form, but it was there before they got to Washington. If you and I don't stand up to challenge it, it will be there long after we leave."

It was the latest volley in the "change versus experience" debate that has dominated the dialogue between Clinton and her top rivals in recent weeks. On Sunday, Clinton unveiled a new campaign speech where she argued that only a president experienced in the ways of Washington could bring about real political transformation.

Without mentioning Clinton by name, Obama struck back hard at that argument.

"There are those who tout their experience working the system in Washington," Obama said. "But the problem is the system in Washington isn't working for us, and it hasn't been for a very long time."

Obama, who has spent much of the campaign answering questions of whether he is experienced enough to be president, ticked through his years as a community organizer and consensus builder in the Illinois legislature and now in the Senate. But he also sought to frame his hope-driven message as an antidote to the cynicism of political insiders.

"A lot of people who've been in Washington a lot longer than me, they've got better connections, they go(to the)right dinner parties, they know how to talk the Washington talk," he said. "I may not have the experience Washington likes but I believe I have the experience America needs right now."

With Clinton still riding high in most polls as the fall campaign was set to begin in earnest, both Obama and John Edwards have stepped up their claim that Clinton is too cautious and too conventional to bring real change to Washington.

"Hope and change are not just the rhetoric of a campaign for me," [..]


Quote:
Clinton courts labor at Iowa picnic

Democrat Hillary Clinton courted labor activists with a sharply populist theme, making the argument that the party must focus on results, not rhetoric, and that she's the candidate best able to change the nation's course.

Drawing a clear distinction with her Democratic rivals, the New York senator brought her former president husband along for a Labor Day swing underscoring her experience.

"Change is just a word if you don't have the strength and experience to make it happen," Clinton said. "I bring 35 years of experience to make the changes I think we need to make in America."[..]

Clinton said she would hit the ground running, acting even before sworn into office. The day after winning election, Clinton said, "I'm going to ask distinguished Americans of both parties, including my husband" to begin traveling the globe with the message: `America is back.'"

The fight for the Democratic nomination has focused on which candidate is most likely to bring fundamental change to a country that all argue is off course. Rivals Barack Obama and John Edwards contend that Clinton is a creature of Washington who ultimately will bring business as usual to the White House.

In what she billed as the formal opening of her fall campaign, Clinton sought to turn that argument on its ear, saying her experience means she is best qualified to bring about change.

"We need to focus on results, not rhetoric, people not process," said Clinton. "You have to go into the Oval Office on day one and start making change. I want to start even before I'm inaugurated."

In seeking distinction with rivals like Edwards and Obama, Clinton and her backers argue that Obama of Illinois is in his first term in the Senate, and Edwards served only a single term as a senator from North Carolina before leaving office. They see her two terms as first lady as well as two terms representing New York in the Senate as building the experience needed to push her plans through Congress.

"We are now living with a government that doesn't work, that none of us believe in, that has demonstrated time and time again they put cronyism above competence, ideology above true leadership," said Clinton.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 3 Sep, 2007 08:02 pm
Reviewing the two accounts above, though, I've got to go with Clinton.

I agree with Obama that more is needed to repair the country than just a return to the 90s. But the way I'd interpret that is that the new generation of Democrats need to be bolder and more confident in returning America to its one-day progressivism rather than just Bill Clinton's triangulating corporate centrism. Whereas it sounds like Obama is talking about something else: he is rejecting the 1990s Democrats for its alleged "divisive, special interest politics".

There's the rub for me: after eight years of the neo-con Bush revolution on foreign and economic policy, avoiding being too "divisive" when they get in power should not be a first concern for the Dems. Not unless you want to fall into the trap of being exactly too "cautious and conventional" yourself. And the "special interests" line, at least when used against Democrats, is usually taken as a swipe at the influence of unions, teachers, etc. All in all too much of the Perot kind of centrist/anti-state populism rather than progressive populism.

In that context, the other reason why I sympathise more with Hillary's words above is that she talks bread and butter. In the part I snipped she has her focus on the day-to-day economic concerns of regular people, and it's in that context that her "results not rhetorics" framing works so well. She's all: you want someone to work for you and get your life improved, finally - and I know how to get things done.

In comparison with that, Obama's whole focus, how this article captures it anyhow, is conspicuously about a more abstract 'change of style in Washington' - all about a change in how things are done. Bringing hope back! But like Hillary said, the focus right now should not just be on "results, not rhetoric", but on "people not process". Or "policies not process", is what I would have said: on changing people's material circumstances, specially those of middle and working class people, rather than on changing political processes, special interest politics, promoting bipartisanism, etc. The latter angle reminds me more of McCain's '00 campaign. Very worthwhile, certainly laudable - but yeah, bigger priorities have appeared since.

Perhaps I'm reading way too much into this, but it sounds to me like Obama's "hope and change should not just be rhetoric" line could be a double-edged sword for him. It just begs the question, beyond rhetorics, who can best deliver that change?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 3 Sep, 2007 08:51 pm
nimh, I like reading your stuff because you clarify my own thoughts, and I like the fact that you don't have any axes to grind. Please continue with your personal opinions; I will continue to follow you until election day is upon us.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Mon 3 Sep, 2007 09:58 pm
nimh

I like that post very much. Clear-headed.

As they have worked out their respective formulas and set each other in contrast, certain pluses and negatives become more apparent for both of them and I think you nail them really well.

Obama has, I think, an inherent problem. How do you go about campaigning on a theme of freshness or newness when the very essence of that theme implies something like 'that which hasn't been seen before'? It isn't that such a thing is necessarily impossible or even unlikely. It's just that he's pointing to something which hasn't happened yet and, for his listeners, a leap of faith is needed. Truly inspirational figures, say King or Ghandi, managed to move people in such a manner and changed the world (surely their parts of the world) for the better. It really was paradigm change stuff. I think one might reasonably argue that Reagan managed something like this too, though in my opinion, his influence was perverse, a la Joe McCarthy. When folks protest that charisma is dangerous, it's likely that they are thinking of such perversions or betrayals that might wait at the end of that leap of faith. Re Obama, I'm not concerned with this aspect at all. I think nothing would be better for this fuckedup country than a truly inspirational and progressive leader. But it all seems a tricky part of his campaign theme and not something Hillary's people have to worry about, other than how to have it sit on Obama as credibility problem.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Mon 3 Sep, 2007 09:59 pm
For those who would like to read the entire speech ::waves to Sozobe:::

Quote:
Remarks of Senator Barack Obama at Labor Day Rally
Manchester, NH | September 03, 2007
I have been running for President now for a little more than six months. And everywhere we've gone we've seen these huge crowds just like this one. We saw 10,000 in Iowa City. 20,000 in Austin. 20,000 in Atlanta.

It's not just the numbers themselves that are so inspiring. It's the people behind those numbers. They're young and old; black and white, Latino, Asian, and Native American. They're Democrats and Independents and more than a few Republicans. Many are showing up to the very first political event of their lifetime.

The conventional thinking in Washington tells us that we're a country divided into Red States and Blue States; that we're doomed to fight the same tired partisan battles over and over again. They tell us we can't come together to take on big challenges like health care, or energy, or education; that we can't agree on what America should be, so we might as well settle for the way America is right now.

But these crowds tell me something else. They tell me that when it comes to what's wrong with this country, the American people are not the problem. The American people are the answer.

We're here today - you and I - because we believe in what this country can be. In the face of war, we believe there can be peace. In the face of despair, we believe there can be hope. In the face of a politics that's shut us out, that's told us to settle, that's divided us for too long, we believe we can be one people, reaching for what's possible, building that more perfect union.

That's why we're here.

We know we need a new direction. And that change begins with an end to the Bush-Cheney Administration. Their years haven't just been bad years for Democrats. They've been bad years for America.

We've seen the triumph of ideology over reason; of cronyism over competence. We've seen the Constitution of the United States treated as a nuisance instead of the founding document of our democracy. We've seen policies that have widened the divide between Wall Street and Main Street and marginalized organized labor at a time when American workers need a voice most. We've seen fellow citizens abandoned on rooftops after a storm. And we've seen a disastrous war in Iraq that should never have been authorized and never been waged.

But we also know that, as bad as George Bush has been, it's going to take more than a change of parties in the White House to truly turn this country around. George Bush and Dick Cheney may have turned divisive, special-interest politics into an art form, but they didn't invent it. It was there before they got to Washington, and if you and I don't stand up and challenge it, it will be there long after they leave.

And so we face a choice in this election.

Do we continue the cynical math that says it's a winning strategy to divide our country in two, and simply ignore the half that doesn't agree? Or do we find our stake in each other as Americans, united again by a sense of common purpose and a common destiny?

Do we continue the conventional Washington thinking on foreign policy that led us to this tragic war in Iraq? Or do we recognize the challenges of a new world, and engage with friends and foes in a way that restores America's moral leadership and security?

Do we continue to allow lobbyists to veto our progress? Or do we finally put our national interests ahead of the special interests, and address the concerns people feel over their jobs, their health care and their children's future?

That's why I'm running for President of the United States.

Because to meet America's challenges, changing parties isn't change enough. We need something new. We need to turn the page.

There are those who tout their experience working the system in Washington - but the problem is that the system in Washington isn't working for us and hasn't for a long time.

Think about it. We've been talking about the health care crisis in this country for decades. Yet through Democratic and Republican Administrations we've failed to act. And you know why - because the drug and insurance industry has spent over a billion dollars on lobbying in the past ten years alone to block reform. We've heard promises of energy independence for decades, yet every year, the oil and gas lobbyists use their clout and their money to keep us addicted to fossil fuels.

Too many in Washington see politics as a game. And that is why I believe this election cannot be about who can play this game better. It has to be about who can put an end to the game-playing. The times are too serious; the stakes are too high. And the change that's required, this new spirit of responsibility and honesty; of seriousness and sacrifice, starts with you. It starts with millions of people across this country, coming together to demand something better.

I have never seen politics as a game. From the day I decided to become a community organizer on the South Side of Chicago over two decades ago, I have always seen politics as a mission - as the way we hold this country up to our highest ideals. And when we've fallen short of those ideals, it's this sense of mission that has compelled Americans of all backgrounds and beliefs to put aside their differences and push their shoulder against the wheel of history in search of a better day.

It's this sense of mission that led my grandfather to enlist after Pearl Harbor and sent my grandmother to a bomber assembly line. It's what led thousands of young people I'll never know to sit at lunch counters and brave fire hoses so that we all might be free. It's what led my father to keep writing letters until someone answered his prayer and gave him his ticket to America. And it's what led me to those poor neighborhoods in Chicago, so that I could do my part to help folks who had lost jobs and lost hope when the local steel plant closed.

It's politics as a mission. And if you don't spend your whole life in Washington, it becomes easier to remember what this means. The other day I got head to out to California because the Service Employees' Union had organized an event where I would walk in the shoes of one of their members for a day. And so I woke up at five a.m. and met up with this sixty-one-year-old woman named Pauline Beck who was a home care worker. Every day of her life she wakes up and she takes care of two foster children who do not have a family of their own. Then she goes to work and she takes care of an eighty-seven-year-old amputee. And so I went with her to work, and we scrubbed the floors and we did the laundry and cleaned the rooms.

It was one of the best days I've had on the campaign so far. Because it reminded me of what we're doing here. Listening to this humble woman talk about the hardships of her life without a trace of self-pity, glad she could be of some service to somebody, just wanting a little bit more pay to take care of those kids, a little more security for her retirement, maybe a day off once in awhile to rest her tired back, I was reminded that for all the noise and the pettiness coming out of Washington, what holds this country together is this fundamental belief that we all have a stake in each other - that I am my brother's keeper; that I am my sister's keeper. And that must express itself not only in our churches and synagogues or in our personal lives, but in our government too.

Now, when the folks in Washington hear me speak, this is usually when they start rolling their eyes. "Oh, there he goes talking about hope again. He's so naive. He's a hope peddler. He's a hope-monger."

Well I stand guilty as charged. I am hopeful about America. Apparently the pundits consider this a chronic condition, a symptom of a lack of experience.

I used to wonder what they meant, this whole experience argument, because I've been fighting for people as a public servant for over two decades - as a community organizer, a civil rights lawyer, a constitutional law professor, a state Senator, and a U.S. Senator.

But then I came to realize that to this bunch, only the years you spend in Washington count. Only time in Washington translates into wisdom.

I think they are wrong about that. Recent history suggests otherwise. There were a couple of guys named Cheney and Rumsfeld who had two of the longest resumes in Washington and they led us into the worst foreign policy fiasco in our history. Time served doesn't guarantee judgment. A resume does nothing about character.

So let me tell you about a different kind of experience - the experience I bring to this race.

My experience tells me that real change and progress comes not by dividing, but by bringing people together to get things done - like when I worked with police officers and civil rights advocates to reform a death penalty system that had sent thirteen innocent people in Illinois to death row. Or when I worked with Republicans and Democrats to expand health care for 150,000 Illinoisans, or put $100 million worth of tax cuts in the pockets of working families. Or when I worked with my Republican colleague, Dick Lugar, to pass a law securing dangerous weapons in the old Soviet Union.

My experience tells me that real change and reform come when we're willing to put the people's interests before the special interests and partisan interests. That's what I did in Illinois when I took on money in politics and passed the first ethics reform in twenty-five years, and that's what I did in Washington when I passed a law that earned me the cold shoulder from leaders of both parties - for the first time in history, Washington lobbyists will have to disclose who they're raising money from and who in Congress they're funneling it to.

My experience tells me that real change and security come when we're willing to make foreign policy decisions based not on what's popular in Washington, but what's right for America - based on a real understanding of the world. That's why I resisted the tide in my campaign for the US Senate and opposed the war in Iraq from the start. As we saw then, longevity in Washington is no guarantee of good judgment.

So let's be clear - there are a lot of people who have been in Washington longer than me; who have better connections and go to the right dinner parties and know how to talk the Washington talk. Well I might not have the experience Washington likes, but I believe I have the experience America needs right now. Hope and change are not just the rhetoric of a campaign for me. Hope and change have been the causes of my life. Hope and change are the story of our country. And we're here today to continue that story.

We're here to infuse the old Washington politics with a new sense of mission - to unite people around a common purpose. To rally Americans around a common destiny. We aren't just here to win an election. We are here to transform a nation.

I do not accept that in the richest nation on Earth we have to stand by while 47 million Americans have no health care and millions more are on the verge of bankruptcy because of their medical bills. My mother died of ovarian cancer in the prime of her life and do you know what she was most worried about in those final months? She was between jobs when she was diagnosed and she wasn't sure whether insurance would cover her treatment. So I know what it's like to see a loved one suffer because of a broken health care system. I know that it's wrong. And I know that's not who we are.

When I am President, we will have universal health care in this country by the end of my first term in office. It's a plan that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family's premiums by $2500 a year. And I will not let the drug and insurance companies spend another billion dollars to block reform - because people like my mother shouldn't have to worry about bankruptcy every time they get sick. We're better than that.

I do not accept that we have to keep sending $800 million a day to hostile nations because of our addiction to foreign oil - a dependency that fuels both sides of the war on terror and is melting the polar ice caps in the bargain. We can meet our moral obligation to future generations and halt the march of global warming.

I have a plan to raise our fuel standards that's won the support of some lawmakers who had never supported raising fuel standards before. And I didn't just give a speech about it in front of some environmental audience in California - I went right to Detroit and said it in front of a group of automakers. Now I have to admit - the room was pretty quiet. But I did it because I don't think we're going to get anywhere in this country by just telling everyone what they want to hear. We have to tell people what they need to hear. We have to tell people the truth. And you shouldn't expect anything less from your President.

I don't accept that we can't give every single child in America a world-class education. We know countries that out-teach us today will out-compete us tomorrow. But it's bigger than that. The America we believe in isn't a country where millions of children are robbed of their opportunity by failing schools. And the answer isn't just a snappy slogan.

To truly leave no child behind, we have to make a genuine commitment to educational opportunity for all, from cradle to adulthood. This country should be focusing on the most important part of any child's achievement - the person standing at the front of the classroom. As President, I will launch a campaign to recruit an army of new teachers, and we'll pay them better, and give them more support, and help them reach high standards by working with them, not working against them. I will invest in early childhood education so that every child has the best possible start in life. And while we're at it, let's finally make a college degree affordable and available to every American, and bolster our community colleges to help educate and train America's workers. We can do that.

I do not accept that the American Dream is a thing of the past. On this Labor Day, let's give American workers more than a parade. Let's give them policies that actually value their work. Let's provide them with a living wage. Let's allow our unions do what they do best again - organize our workers and lift up our middle-class. And let's stop giving tax breaks to the companies who send them overseas and start giving them to companies who create jobs right here in America. We can do this.

Finally, I do not accept an America that has lost its moral standing in the community of nations. Today there is no greater mission than keeping America safe and restoring America's image in the world.

That starts with ending this war. I opposed the war in Iraq from the start. I said then that Iraq was the wrong battlefield; that we would find ourselves mired in a lengthy civil war, diverting our attention from Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. And I introduced a plan back in January that would have gradually and responsibly removed all combat troops from Iraq by March 30th, 2008. The President vetoed a plan just like this last spring, but we will be debating the war again next week. Now is the time to keep the pressure on all those Republican Senators and Congressmen who continue to support the President's failed course. We can end this war without George Bush. And if we don't, then it will be the first thing I do as President of the United States.

But the change that is needed extends beyond ending the war. To repair the damage, to meet the dangers and seize the opportunities of this new century, the old formulas will not do. We need to turn the page on the Bush-Cheney policy of not talking to leaders we don't like. That doesn't make us look tough. It makes us look arrogant. I'm not afraid that I'll lose a propaganda battle with a bunch of dictators. Strong countries and strong Presidents shouldn't be afraid to talk to our adversaries to tell them where America stands. That's why I will - because that's how tough, principled and smart diplomacy works.

I want to go before the United Nations as President and say, "America's back." It's time for America to lead again. It's time to fight on the right battlefield in rooting out al Qaeda. It's time to lead by building schools in the Middle East that teach math and science instead of hatred. It's time for us to close Guantanamo and restore the right of habeas corpus. It's time to show the world that we are not a country that ships prisoners in the dead of night to be tortured in far off countries. That we are not a country that looks away while innocents are slaughtered in Darfur. That we are not a country that runs prisons which lock people away without ever telling them why they are there or what they are charged with.

That is not who we are.

We are the last, best hope of Earth. We are the nation that liberated a continent from a madman, that lifted ourselves from the depths of Depression, that won Civil Rights, and Women's Rights, and Voting Rights for all our people. We are the beacon that has led generations of weary travelers to find opportunity, and liberty, and hope on our doorstep. That's who we are. And that's who we can be again.

I am reminded every single day that I am not a perfect man. I will not be a perfect President. But I can promise you this - I will always tell you what I think and where I stand. I will be honest with you about the challenges we face. I will listen to you when we disagree. And most importantly, I will open the doors of government and ask you to be involved in your own democracy again.

I know what I'm asking is hard. I know that politics and politicians have disappointed you so many times before, to the point where sometimes it seems easier to just tune out and walk away. But what you have to remember is that when you walk away, the same old politics wins every time. That's what all the people who benefit from politics as a game are counting on.

That's why we need you. That's why I can't do this alone. I am not just asking you to trust in my ability to change this country - I'm asking you to trust in yourself. In your own instincts. In your own sense of possibility. In your own sense of what's right. I'm asking you to bet on us, on our capacity to do what previous generations have done - to lift our sights, to join together and forge a better future for our children and grandchildren. Make this campaign the vehicle for your hopes and your dreams; for your sense of what America is and what America can be. And if you're willing to work for it and fight for it and bring others to this cause, if after this rally you decide to go sign up twenty more people or volunteer to knock on doors or serve as a precinct captain, then I believe that this time will finally be different from all the rest.

And so I'm asking you - if you believe it's time to challenge the Washington politics that have let us down and shut us out and made us settle; if you believe it's time to restore a sense of mission to our politics and a sense of possibility to America; if you want a country that no longer sees itself as a collection of Red States and Blue States; if you want a President who can lead a United States of America, then I ask you to believe in this campaign; I ask you to believe in yourself, I ask you to believe again in the dream that we call America.

0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 04:28 am
Thank you for the kind words, Blatham and c.i.!

Butrflynet wrote:
For those who would like to read the entire speech ::waves to Sozobe:::

Thanks for the text, Butrfly. Regarding your wave to Sozobe: it might be difficult to imagine for you that us folks who disagree with you on Obama here actually also might be interested in what he said in full, but yet we are!

When you really believe in something, it's sometimes easier to assume that when people disagree with you, it must just be because they're not well informed enough, or not interested in what your guy really said. Thats a pitfall for any partisan, because amazingly, sometimes people are interested, and do know, and yet disagree with your guy, or with his focus, or whatever, anyway.

For sure I did admit in my post that I might be reading too much just in the newspaper reports.. In my defense though, this is a reality that Obama supporters do have to deal with: most people only read or see the media reports, and do not read the whole speech. So how Obama's self-presentation filters through in them counts at least as much. And despite the media's vagaries of set narratives, this is still in his hands: by choosing not just what all to say in his speeches, but what to focus in particular, and in what overarching themes to frame it, etc.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 04:56 am
I think that may have been a transcript thing (since I can't watch a video of the speech) more than an interest thing.

Thanks Butrflynet!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 05:26 am
Meanwhile, I'm impressed that Hillary has managed to grab the "experience" mantel. How does that work, exactly? I remain resistant to the idea that being first lady -- even an unusually involved first lady -- is really the kind of experience that matters. And if you go by her Senate experience only, she's barely more experienced than Obama.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 05:41 am
Quote:
When you really believe in something, it's sometimes easier to assume that when people disagree with you, it must just be because they're not well informed enough, or not interested in what your guy really said. Thats a pitfall for any partisan, because amazingly, sometimes people are interested, and do know, and yet disagree with your guy, or with his focus, or whatever, anyway.



Then again, when you really don't care to fix an incorrect impression you have of a person, it is often easier to assume a prejudiced, patronizing blanket view of their motives rather than think it has nothing to do with partisanship or fanaticism and is just a courtesy extended to the one person that was waved at. If you are interested, you might care to know it isn't the first time that such courtesy from me to Soz has occurred in this thread.





Nimh,

One question... How is it you can offer reams of your opinion and analysis as an accompanyment to excerpts from news articles, yet when I make a simple one-sentence statement introducing a full speech transcript without any opinion or analysis this requires a lecture from you about partisanship and fanaticism? Exactly who is it that is exhibiting snobbish behavior? Oops, that's two questions.



P.S. I'd post Hillary's speech transcripts too but they don't make them available on her campaign website.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 07:27 am
Butrflynet wrote:
Nimh,

One question... How is it you can offer reams of your opinion and analysis as an accompanyment to excerpts from news articles, yet when I make a simple one-sentence statement introducing a full speech transcript without any opinion or analysis this requires a lecture from you about partisanship and fanaticism?

Fair enough.

Actually, I would not react negatively at all if you offered some argument or analysis yourself. I'd actually greatly appreciate it - I think coming up with "reams" of reasoned opinion and analysis is a good thing. Copy/pastes become more interesting when they are accompanied by a personal take, I think - I dont always get around to it myself either, but I try to.

That's what I was kind of hoping for: that one of the Obama supporters here would come up with a good counter-argument to make me re-think what I've been saying, or at least think it over further. After all, I'm hardly a Hillary fan - not too long ago, I was still saying that if she would be the nominee, I'd have voted Green if I were American! So thanks for the transcript, but what do you think? How would you argue (against) any of the points I addressed, for example?

When instead, all that came was what I read to be a snippish kind of "for those who are interested in what he really said" copy/paste, I responded negatively. But obviously my passive agression radar was oversensitive. It went off in mistake this time. I obviously misinterpreted your short sentence, so I apologise for overreacting to it.

Butrflynet wrote:
P.S. I'd post Hillary's speech transcripts too but they don't make them available on her campaign website.

Actually the Hillary site does make many transcripts of speeches of hers available: Hillary for President: Speeches. (Not this one though, alas.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 09:02 am
sozobe wrote:
Meanwhile, I'm impressed that Hillary has managed to grab the "experience" mantel. How does that work, exactly? I remain resistant to the idea that being first lady -- even an unusually involved first lady -- is really the kind of experience that matters. And if you go by her Senate experience only, she's barely more experienced than Obama.


soz

Her campaign surely will have this notion at the top of that list titled "notions about Hillary that MUST be planted/strengthened in the public mind". It is not only essential as a means to differentiate her positively from Barack but it is also essential going into the general election...particularly, I think, because she is a female. (Also on that list will be 'CIC tough as nails' and 'warm').

How well her campaign has been designed and executed, at least so far, speaks to the depth of talent (and money and length of time in the planning) behind the campaign. It's all been pretty pitch perfect.

In retrospect, one can look at her performance in the Senate, for which she has gotten a lot of kudos for work load and bipartisan cooperation as a necessary prior step in this path to the WH = experience, effectiveness, moderation.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 09:08 am
One little additional note of interest...I've been watching a fair bit of Fox recently. Obama receives an unusual amount of positive mention from Hannity and O'Reilly and others. He's "a class act", as Dick Morris put it yesterday on O'Reilly. It isn't that Fox is changing its fundamental nature or goals however. It's merely that this provides a means of placing Hillary in a negative comparison.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 10:46 am
blatham wrote:
In retrospect, one can look at her performance in the Senate, for which she has gotten a lot of kudos for work load and bipartisan cooperation as a necessary prior step in this path to the WH = experience, effectiveness, moderation.


This certainly appears to be a source for the disproportionate focus on Ms. Clinton in an article in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Quote:


It's glaring (someone needs a good editor) - one Democratic candidate, one Republican candidate, one paragraph. One sentence spared for the Republican candidate.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Tue 4 Sep, 2007 11:37 am
A few things about Hillary from Nimh's posts....

How is it that she can claim 35 years of experience? 35 years of experience in what exactly? I wasn't aware being a lawyer and the first lady of Arkansas was an integral of the Presidential resume. By experience, one would assume relevent experience....

How can one run on the pillars of change, yet fall back on this (pseudo)-experience she has. Clinton (and Obama to a lesser degree) contends that things in Washington are broken, yet they both try to paint themselves as experienced, and capable of changing it. I think in order to effect change, one needs to have less of an historical connection to the corruption and corporate slavery that has come to charcterize Washington.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 5 Sep, 2007 02:15 pm
Eric Alterman...
Quote:
A working class hero is something to be ...

Both Tom Edsall of HuffPo, here, and The Wall Street Journal, here, take a look at Obama and Hillary's foreign policy advisers and try to draw conclusions about what the personalities mean for a future presidency. While many of them served in the Clinton administration, and most of them serve in respectable Democrat-oriented think tanks, universities, and investment banks, as out-of-power Democratic foreign policy advisers have traditionally done, I think it's fair to say that here Clinton really would be Clinton II and if you liked that, you'll like this. It's the Democratic Establishment, for better and for worse. Obama's faces are fresher and more open to questioning the verities of the Brookings Institution and the Council on Foreign Relations. It's not that they define themselves in opposition to these places; it's just that they are less invested in the kinds of analyses that have traditionally defined bipartisan Establishment thinking. If the secretary of state is not Holbrooke, it'll be Biden. You could do far worse, and believe me, we have. (The Republicans abandoned their bipartisans long ago, and its members had to either fight or switch. Most switched, and ended up lending their legitimacy to the Bush debacle until its debacle-like qualities were evident to all.)

Obama's refusal to endorse the war, his early embrace of Samantha Power during his first year in the Senate and his association with Sarah Sewall and Larry Korb, mentioned above, speak extremely well both of his self-confidence and his willingness to look at problems anew. An Obama presidency may have a steeper learning curve than a Clinton presidency in foreign policy, but it may learn more worthwhile things. (I wish I could include Edwards in this post, but I have no idea who his foreign policy advisers are, and after reading his Foreign Affairs piece, I'm still not sure what he thinks our foreign policy ought to be, except different ...)

Meanwhile, while I both like and admire Hillary, and have no doubts whatever that she'd make a highly competent president, I find it harder to "forgive" her support for the war than do many other liberals because I've still not heard a convincing answer from her about what's she's learned not to do next time. It's one thing to make a mistake that leads to the worst strategic catastrophe in the history of this country. I suppose anyone can do that. But if you do, you have to say what you know now that you didn't know then, and if all it is the fact that the Bush administration is peopled by lying extremist incompetents, well, that's not good enough, because you certainly should have known that. And you should also have had the courage to say so at the time, when it mattered.

http://mediamatters.org/altercation/?f=h_column
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 5 Sep, 2007 02:19 pm
I really, really agree with that last paragraph.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 5 Sep, 2007 03:35 pm
Yup. I find Alterman consistently dependable in balance and one of the most informative sources (for politics and music) around. A special guy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 5 Sep, 2007 03:39 pm
I agree with soz. For a smart woman, I wonder why she hasn't figured that out? It's like a thorn that won't go away.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Wed 5 Sep, 2007 05:06 pm
While you are talking about Hillary,has everyone forgotten this little gem...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/23/senate.military/

Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An unlikely pair of Senate allies called for a larger military Sunday and pledged a thorough investigation of abuse against Iraqi prisoners in Baghdad.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/21/clinton-iraq-tactics-wo_n_61272.html

Quote:
That begins with ensuring that America does have the world's strongest and smartest military force. We've begun to change tactics in Iraq, and in some areas, particularly in Al Anbar province, it's working.

We're just years too late changing our tactics. We can't ever let that happen again. We can't be fighting the last war. We have to be preparing to fight the new war.

And this new war requires different tactics and strategies. We've got to be prepared to maintain the best fighting force in the world.

I propose increasing the size of our Army by 80,000 soldiers, balancing the legacy systems with newer programs to help us keep our technological edge, re-evaluating the training and education programs that service members need in the 21st century.


So she says the surge is seeing some success,and she wants more people in the army??

Yet,wasnt she one of the ones saying that the army was taking people who only saw it as a way out of poverty, or that those who joined the army only did so because it was they only way they could get an education.

Now she wants more people in the army?

That seems to be a contradiction.
0 Replies
 
 

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