georgeob1
 
  2  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 01:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Even so, your claim that 'new spending' dwarfs the cost of the tax cuts is factually incorrect. It just is. The chart is clear. You can't get around that by continued use of pompousness. I challenge you to directly address the fact that you are incorrect with your initial claim.


One more time.... Your chart shows at most two years of actual data. The rest is projections based on unstated assumptions. Even that data shows that recent spending increases (incliuding those associated with the wars) eclipse the magnitude of the tax cuts in terms of our current deficit.


No, it does not. It shows that the two are roughly equal, if you count only the tax cuts. If you count the tax cuts and wars, you are definitely wrong.

I'm beginning to question your ability to read a simple graph, George. Here it is a third time:
Cycloptichorn


And I seriously question your ability to either read clear text or the charts you post here. Consider the 2009 & 2010 data depicted on your chart: Though the scale is a bit hard to read the wars contributed about 0.3 trillion; TARP & recovery measures about 0.45 million, for a total of 0.75 million, while the tax cuts added 0.35 million, and that is exactly what I claimed.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 02:30 pm
@MontereyJack,
O is simply desperate and, apparently, someone has gotten through his thick skull, and convinced him he needs to stop sawing at his own throat.

If you were disappointed in him before just wait how he tacks to the right in advance of the election.

At heart, he's a left-winger, but in his soul he, like so many other successful politicians, is addicted to power.

As much as comparing him to Carter resonates so well, the past president who he is most like, may be Richard Nixon, a man who would stop at very little to get re-elected.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  -1  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 02:33 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Even so, your claim that 'new spending' dwarfs the cost of the tax cuts is factually incorrect. It just is. The chart is clear. You can't get around that by continued use of pompousness. I challenge you to directly address the fact that you are incorrect with your initial claim.


One more time.... Your chart shows at most two years of actual data. The rest is projections based on unstated assumptions. Even that data shows that recent spending increases (incliuding those associated with the wars) eclipse the magnitude of the tax cuts in terms of our current deficit.


No, it does not. It shows that the two are roughly equal, if you count only the tax cuts. If you count the tax cuts and wars, you are definitely wrong.

I'm beginning to question your ability to read a simple graph, George. Here it is a third time:
Cycloptichorn


And I seriously question your ability to either read clear text or the charts you post here. Consider the 2009 & 2010 data depicted on your chart: Though the scale is a bit hard to read the wars contributed about 0.3 trillion; TARP & recovery measures about 0.45 million, for a total of 0.75 million, while the tax cuts added 0.35 million, and that is exactly what I claimed.


How can I take your criticism seriously, when you can't keep Millions, Billions, and Trillions straight? What more, you didn't read what I wrote at all. Go back and look at my post again and maybe you'll see the following line:

Quote:
Let us examine year 2010.


I chose 2010 because it more accurately represented the full cost of the ARRA. And the numbers I provided are indeed an accurate reflection of what the chart shows for 2010.

Lazy, lazy, lazy, lazy lazy. I can't say it enough. You kill yourself through a thousand self-inflicted, tiny wounds. You should take some of that money you save in our rock-bottom tax rates and use it to hire an editor to review things before you post them.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  2  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

How can I take your criticism seriously, when you can't keep Millions, Billions, and Trillions straight? What more, you didn't read what I wrote at all. Go back and look at my post again and maybe you'll see the following line:

Quote:
Let us examine year 2010.


I chose 2010 because it more accurately represented the full cost of the ARRA. And the numbers I provided are indeed an accurate reflection of what the chart shows for 2010.

Lazy, lazy, lazy, lazy lazy. I can't say it enough. You kill yourself through a thousand self-inflicted, tiny wounds. You should take some of that money you save in our rock-bottom tax rates and use it to hire an editor to review things before you post them.

Cycloptichorn


OK I carelessly miswrote billions when I should have written trillions. With that corrected my post was entirely accurate, while your response was either very confused or positively deceptive.

However that has nothing whatever to do with the fact that the numbers I cited are accurate representations of what your chart shows for both 2009 and 2010, the only difference being that the Tarp & Fannie & Freddie data is in 2009 only, though the sum of that and other "recovery measures" is about the same for both years - exactly as I reported.

You are once again trying to wiggle out of a corner you put yourself in by trying to alter the question and throw some distracting dust in the air. Disappointing.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:20 pm
The White House announced today that the President has directed the EPA to suspend (for about two years) its proposed oxone rules that would have drastically curtailed coal-based electrical power generation in the country, pending an update of the science behind the ruling. The poor sap doesn't even have the balls to acknowledge that he is doing it to avoid serious economic dislocation - as previous Presidents have done. Very sad.

The economic necessity for sustaining coal generation until we deploy a substitute has been clear for a very long time. The present impasse is related to the President's direction to the EPA to claim regulation of CO2 in that both measures indicated his intent to shut down our coal fired electrical generation in the country - something previous presidents have wisely avoided. Now it becomes evident that our hapless President hadn't thought this issue through when he took his initial actions either - along with many others like it in that respect.

Another addition to the list of broken campaign promises that remain unacknowledged by this failing administration;

Closing Guantanamo
Civilian trials for terrorist prisioners
Change we can belive in ....

An inability to face up to unpleasant facts appears to be endemic among liberals here.

Cycloptichorn
 
  -1  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:32 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

How can I take your criticism seriously, when you can't keep Millions, Billions, and Trillions straight? What more, you didn't read what I wrote at all. Go back and look at my post again and maybe you'll see the following line:

Quote:
Let us examine year 2010.


I chose 2010 because it more accurately represented the full cost of the ARRA. And the numbers I provided are indeed an accurate reflection of what the chart shows for 2010.

Lazy, lazy, lazy, lazy lazy. I can't say it enough. You kill yourself through a thousand self-inflicted, tiny wounds. You should take some of that money you save in our rock-bottom tax rates and use it to hire an editor to review things before you post them.

Cycloptichorn


OK I carelessly miswrote billions when I should have written trillions.


Actually, you carelessly wrote Millions when you should have written Trillions. Even in your mea culpa, you can't be bothered to check for accuracy before you hit post!

Lazy x 10.

I think I'm pretty much done here for today.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 04:52 pm
@georgeob1,
You are more capable to discuss the ozone rules than I am, Georgeob. My understanding is that, back in the late 1980's, EPA scientists recommended a reduction in ozone pollution. Bush, perhaps after agreeing initially, was pressured to reduce the standard to 75 parts per billion. That was the standard that was set and there would be reviews every 5 years.
The most recent study by the EPA came up with a reccommended reduction to something like 60-70 parts per billion. That is what Obama was being pushed to adopt. The problem is that the proposal jumps ahead of the of the next review, which is scheduled for 2013. Lawsuits have been filed, and lobbyists on both sides are doing there thing.
Industry claims that the regs will cost them $100Bn and result in the loss of a 100K in jobs. Environmentalists retort that the health care costs associated with increased asthma and heart and lung diseases would exceed that.
Do you think I made, at least, a decent start on explaining this?
georgeob1
 
  2  
Fri 2 Sep, 2011 06:21 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

Do you think I made, at least, a decent start on explaining this?

Yes you did. There is a complex relationship between ozone levels and those of nitrous oxides (stuff that produces smog) and sulfur dioxide (stuff that induces acid rain but is also a very potent anti greenhous gas) and their individual effects in the atmosphere. For example, the smog threshold associated with nitrous oxides is itself variable with ozone concentrations. For this reason ozone is a target of many clean air groups interested primarily in smog elimination - the California Air Quality Board prominently among them. In my view and that of most of the enviromnental risk scientists who work for me there is no real case for reducing ozone concventrations to the 60ppb threshold involved and doing so would cut off a needed source for the stratospheric ozone we depend on to avoid order of magnitude increases in skin cancer and other UV related diseases. In addition the relatively small reduction in the allowed concentration involved in going to the so called 2008 standard will have a very large effect on electrical power generators in large areas of the country.

Nearly all of our environmental laws explicitly exclude the social and economic welfare of human beings from the formalisms associated with their bureaucratic decision-making. Despite that, Presidents and agency administrators have routinely set arbitrary limits on regulation with economic and related issues obviously in mind - and most have had the moral courage to say so explicitly.

The problem is that it is nearly impossible to prove conclusively that very low doses and exposure to reactive chemicals and radioilogical irritants have no or limited adverse effect, even though there is no statistically detectable or measurable incidence of disease associated with the exposure. This is why, for example, "scientific" studies of the incidence of cancer over the past several decades resulting from Chernobyl vary from less than a thousand to as high as 12,000 (for the latter to be accepted however, the reader would have to assume that all other cause factors for the cancers in question in the Ukrane/Belarus region suddenly and completely stopped operating - very implausible. Indeed the historical data yields no statistically significant increase in the incidence of cancer there during the period.

Many self styled environmentalists would like to see us return to the bucolic world of 1830, but with moden medicine, prosperity, etc. Given that there were only a billion people on earth in 1830 and about 6 billion today, that simply isn't possible unless large numbers of people elect to die (however perhaps their intent is for only progressives to survive). All the green propaganda notwithstanding, we cannot support our current population without fossil fuels or an economic replacement for them. Yesterday the last remaining corporate recipient of guaranteed loans for the production of the new green power (solar in this case) Obama jobs revolution, filed for bankrupcy, taking a $550 million guaranteed federal loan with it - so the prospects aren't good.

It is very sad that the first casualty in all of these debates is any prospect of creating intelligent and workable syntheses among the competing single issue absolutists now populating our political scene. That of course requires moral courage and leadership - qualities in very short supply among contemporary politicians, and given the President's ruse about seeking "greater scientific" insight about the matter, entirely absent from the White House. I also believe this strident absolutism and lack of intelligent synthesis is a significant contributor to the evident reluctance of corporations to invest their cash in any new economic ventures here today.
revelette
 
  1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 08:47 am
@realjohnboy,


Quote:
Statement by the President on the Ozone National Ambient Air Quality Standards

Over the last two and half years, my administration, under the leadership of EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson, has taken some of the strongest actions since the enactment of the Clean Air Act four decades ago to protect our environment and the health of our families from air pollution. From reducing mercury and other toxic air pollution from outdated power plants to doubling the fuel efficiency of our cars and trucks, the historic steps we’ve taken will save tens of thousands of lives each year, remove over a billion tons of pollution from our air, and produce hundreds of billions of dollars in benefits for the American people.

At the same time, I have continued to underscore the importance of reducing regulatory burdens and regulatory uncertainty, particularly as our economy continues to recover. With that in mind, and after careful consideration, I have requested that Administrator Jackson withdraw the draft Ozone National Ambient Air Quality Standards at this time. Work is already underway to update a 2006 review of the science that will result in the reconsideration of the ozone standard in 2013. Ultimately, I did not support asking state and local governments to begin implementing a new standard that will soon be reconsidered.

I want to be clear: my commitment and the commitment of my administration to protecting public health and the environment is unwavering. I will continue to stand with the hardworking men and women at the EPA as they strive every day to hold polluters accountable and protect our families from harmful pollution. And my administration will continue to vigorously oppose efforts to weaken EPA’s authority under the Clean Air Act or dismantle the progress we have made.



source

Not sure I understand, but I think it was a decision having to do with a review of a 2006 review which might soon be reconsidered. Apparently there was some new standards put into place before the new review was finished and Obama pulled the plug on it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 08:57 am
@georgeob1,
What do the enviromnental risk scientists who don't work for you think George? It may be that the ones who work for you agree with you because they work for you and wish to keep in your good opinion.

If the enviromnental risk scientists who don't work for you are of the same view then there doesn't seem any particular reason to single out the ones who do work for you for special mention unless it is to inform those of us who have no enviromnental risk scientists working for us of how low down the social hierarchy we are compared to you.

You seem pathetically unable to prevent yourself from weaving into your expostulations various self-flattering nods and winks which serve to make us all feel inadequate and complete failures. Can't you see that if you use your status to bolster your arguments then Mr Obama way outranks you. He has thousands working for him. Millions even.

The technology of green power is at a similar stage that Orville Wright's flying machine was once and there is bound to come a point where green power becomes an economic or a political necessity. Thus it is useful to invest in the improvement in it so that when the necessity does arise we are in a position to deal with it. That it cannot compete now with fossil fuels, which is so obvious it is banal to point it out, is neither here nor there.

A Republican president pointed to our "addiction" to oil and Republicans are against addiction in all its forms. I hope.
revelette
 
  1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 09:02 am
@georgeob1,
Your right in the matter of Guantanamo and past prisoner abuses, Obama has disappointed supporters--turned quite few completely off and have gave detractors something to use as though their guy would not have done worse. His reasoning on the past abuses was that he didn't want to look back but go forward. Probably thought that using time and resources would have distracted from things that we need to deal with now such as two wars and a financial crises he inherited when he took office.

However, in March of 2011 Obama reversed his two year order of halting detainees to stand trial. Congress blocked the transfer of prisoners from Guantanamo to the US.

Obama Clears Way for Guantánamo Trials



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:21 am
@revelette,
It looks like Perry is ahead of Obama in the polls. What next?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:46 am
@spendius,
Good morning Spendius ! Always good to start the day with a cup of coffee and a dose of your bile.
spendius wrote:

What do the enviromnental risk scientists who don't work for you think George? It may be that the ones who work for you agree with you because they work for you and wish to keep in your good opinion.
I don't know what other experts think.. I was indicating the limits of my knowledge here. That my associates might feed me what they perceive I want to hear in this area isn't likely. My own education is in fluid mechanics and power engineering. In this area they know I am but a curious and generally knowledgable spectator, and that I ask a lot of questions to satisfy that curiosity. They know I am very concerned about getting business, doing a good job and keeping clients happy, but am otherwise very happy to make a profit serving single-minded zxealots in the areas of their fixations. We also do a lot of regulatory negotiations for private (and public) sector clients and these kinds of risk tradeoffs do come up quite a lot in many projects..

spendius wrote:
If the enviromnental risk scientists who don't work for you are of the same view then there doesn't seem any particular reason to single out the ones who do work for you for special mention unless it is to inform those of us who have no enviromnental risk scientists working for us of how low down the social hierarchy we are compared to you.
Do you feel insecure about this Spendi? It was merely an anecdote about subjects I have discussed with folks who do this stuff for a living, and a response to a question that encapsulated my sources and the limits of my understanding in a fairly brief collection of words.

spendius wrote:
You seem pathetically unable to prevent yourself from weaving into your expostulations various self-flattering nods and winks which serve to make us all feel inadequate and complete failures. Can't you see that if you use your status to bolster your arguments then Mr Obama way outranks you. He has thousands working for him. Millions even.
And as Mr. Obama reveals every day rank is a generally poor indicator of worth. I do apprecuiate your pity Spendi, but believe your sensitivity here reveals more about you than me.

spendius wrote:
The technology of green power is at a similar stage that Orville Wright's flying machine was once and there is bound to come a point where green power becomes an economic or a political necessity. Thus it is useful to invest in the improvement in it so that when the necessity does arise we are in a position to deal with it. That it cannot compete now with fossil fuels, which is so obvious it is banal to point it out, is neither here nor there.
That is a rather ponderous overstatement of the facts. The Wright brothers designed fairly efficient propellers to drive their early model aircraft and they have been further refined in aircraft and various turbine designs for a century since then. This is a very mature area of science and engineering, very much like the design of motors, generators, batteries, and techniques for storing large quantities of excess power. They are all well into the stage at which only marginal gains are likely in the future. Solar power may be an exception in that it is relatively new and there are new techniques evolving for increasing the % of incident solar energy that is captured and converted to electrical power. However all of these techniques necessarily involve very inefficient use of the installed generating capacity, simply because the sun doesn't shine, and the wind doesn't blow all the time. Moreover their sources of power are widely dispersed and a great deal of land and investment is required to collect a relatively small amount of energy. There have been very significant gains in the dsign of nuclear power plants, but the world outside of China doesn't appear willing to accept them. I could go on, but it doesn't seem worthwhile for either of us.

spendius
 
  0  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 11:24 am
@georgeob1,
It must always be worthwhile if it is good to start the day with a dose of my bile.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 12:38 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

Your right in the matter of Guantanamo and past prisoner abuses, Obama has disappointed supporters--turned quite few completely off and have gave detractors something to use as though their guy would not have done worse. His reasoning on the past abuses was that he didn't want to look back but go forward. Probably thought that using time and resources would have distracted from things that we need to deal with now such as two wars and a financial crises he inherited when he took office.


Possibly so. However, I think it is far more likely that he and the single-minded zealots who advise him didn't think through the consequences of doing what they promised to do. Certainly the fiasco of the Justice departments's failed attempt to hold a trial in New York illustrated how remarkably unrealistic they were. My impression is that Obama is very good at liberal talking points among a crowd of uncritical liberal claques, but, outside that comfort zone, he repeatedly reveals himself to be a rather shallow narcissistic talking head, with little in the way of either moral or intellectual substance.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 01:56 pm
@georgeob1,
The definition of a conservative which is what Obama is.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:11 pm
@RABEL222,
I don't think any conservatives would identify him oas one. Obama is merely a clueless liberal talking head who has suddenly confronted a reality he can neither understand nor deal with effectively.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  -1  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:29 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
e repeatedly reveals himself to be a rather shallow narcissistic talking head, with little in the way of either moral or intellectual substance.


pot meet kettle
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  0  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Only on Rassmussen, the rest are not much better though. I just hope the coming year won't be as brutal at the last few weeks have been or he will get beat and then Lord have mercy on us all.


RCP Average 8/16 - 8/30 -- 45.5Obama 44.0Perrry Obama +1.5
Rassmussen 41 44
Quinnipiac 45 42
PPP (D) 49 43
Gallup 47 47

source
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Sat 3 Sep, 2011 05:41 pm
@revelette,
And if the coming year is "as brutal" as the last few weeks have been, whose fault will that be?

Certainly not the Chief Executive's.

 

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