Cycloptichorn
 
  -1  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 03:09 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

No. It is, instead, an expression of contempt for both the object of all this adulation and those who do it.


Well, seeing as the Dems don't feel that way about him, you're way off base. And as I said - it's a personal issue on your part.

I will take your silence on the subject of that last post as agreement with my position; or at the very least, that you can't formulate an argument against it without tying yourself in knots.

Quote:
However, he will almost certainly depart the political scene soon enough.


You think so? Laughing Laughing

Let me put it this way: even if the GOP manages to defeat him in the next election - which I highly doubt they will be able to do, given the fact that your side has decided to run a bunch of ya-hoos against him - do you honestly think that he's leaving the political scene anytime soon? Of course he won't. Much in the same fashion as Clinton, he will continue to be a powerful force for the Dems for the rest of your lifetime. I'd advise getting used to it.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  3  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 03:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

[I will take your silence on the subject of that last post as agreement with my position; or at the very least, that you can't formulate an argument against it without tying yourself in knots.
Take it as you wish. However, you have posed an obviously false dilemma, i.e. rank obstructionism OR principled opposition. The opposition by Republicans in the Congress to the agenda being forced through by the Democrat majorities was clearly and obviously principled. As time passes the wissdom of their opposition and the folly of the "progressive" agenda for our country have both become more clear.

It was obstructionist in your eyes because you didn't like it, and I note that you tend to frequently confuse what you like with what is good for others. They aren't the same at all.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

. Much in the same fashion as Clinton, he will continue to be a powerful force for the Dems for the rest of your lifetime. I'd advise getting used to it.

Cycloptichorn

Oh, he'll still be around, but the perception of him will be more like that of the hapless Jimmy Carter than that of the far more adroit Bill Clinton. "Leading from behind" is a phrase that will long be associated with him. Perhaps you should begin to prepare yourself for that.
Cycloptichorn
 
  -1  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 03:25 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

[I will take your silence on the subject of that last post as agreement with my position; or at the very least, that you can't formulate an argument against it without tying yourself in knots.
Take it as you wish. However, you have posed an obviously false dilemma, i.e. rank obstructionism OR principled opposition. The opposition by Republicans in the Congress to the agenda being forced through by the Democrat majorities was clearly and obviously principled.


I'm sorry, but it clearly was not. McConnell publicly announced - before any legislation was brought to the floor by the Dems after the 2008 election - that the Republican strategy was going to be to block each and every bill possible - to oppose every single piece of legislation until they had the presidency or control the Senate again. Seriously. That's rank obstructionism; not principled opposition. There's no such thing as blanket principled opposition to any bill passing.

What more, Republicans have blocked twice as many Judicial nominees from being confirmed, as the Dems EVER did to any president. And why? There's nothing principled about destroying our judiciary by keeping any nominees from the other side from moving forward. The percentage of nominees confirmed by the Senate is a full 15 points lower than the lowest ever, and 25 points lower than under Bush 2.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/08/18/infographic-record-judicial-diversity-record-judicial-delays

In the House, Republicans motioned to Adjourn up to 6 times a day for a month straight; each time required a vote, each vote took up 45 minutes, and that ground business there to a halt. That's not principled opposition - it's obstructionism. There was no point to it other than to delay. There is no principle in such actions whatsoever, and you know it!

The Republicans didn't object to individual bills the Dems tried to pass that violated some belief of theirs. They objected to ALL BILLS passing under Obama. They objected to ALL judicial candidates. They have objected to ALL nominees for many cabinet positions.

That's rank obstructionism. Your argument is a hollow one, and unconvincing to anyone.

Quote:
As time passes the wissdom of their opposition and the folly of the "progressive" agenda for our country have both become more clear.


Bullshit, but hey - as I've said, you've grown increasingly radicalized, so I can see how you might feel that way.

Quote:
It was obstructionist in your eyes because you didn't like it, and I note that you tend to frequently confuse what you like with what is good for others. They aren't the same at all.


This is the same argument Spendi made, and I've knocked it down twice now. Repeating it doesn't improve the argument.

Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

. Much in the same fashion as Clinton, he will continue to be a powerful force for the Dems for the rest of your lifetime. I'd advise getting used to it.

Cycloptichorn

Oh, he'll still be around, but the perception of him will be more like that of the hapless Jimmy Carter than that of the far more adroit Bill Clinton.


You don't speak for Americans on this one - Obama is very well liked. You only wish such a thing would happen. Are you prepared for the opposite to be true? Laughing

Quote:
"Leading from behind" is a phrase that will long be associated with him. Perhaps you should begin to prepare yourself for that.


I am prepared for that - it's a wise way to lead. And he certainly has seen some success by doing so.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 03:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Seriously, you don't sometimes recoil from the idiot argument, required by official Dem talking points, that it's all the Republicans' fault?

For the first two years of his term he had a filibuster proof majority in congress and still he and his followers were blaming Bush.

Since 2010, his party has controlled the Executive branch and half of the Legislative branch and he and his followers are blaming any and all problems on the House Republicans.

When he loses in 2012 he and his followers will be blaming the Supreme Court.

Will your guy ever take responsibility for what goes wrong during his presidency? He certainly wants to take credit for whatever goes right.

I appreciate that as a loyal partisan you have to defend him against Philistines like georgeob1 and me, but surely you are intelligent enough to know that his presidency, thus far, has not been a success...thanks to him.

Can you honestly say Jimmy Carter's one term presidency was a success? Is there a limit to your partisanship?

The book on Jimmy is going to be the book on Barack: a failed presidency during which economic conditions worsened and internationally, American prestige took a big hit.

I'll say this for him though, his actually not quite as feckless as Carter was. At least he has the excuse of never running anything in his life before he won the presidency.

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 03:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
This article covers the GOP's obstructionism.

http://www.ourfuture.org/files/assets.ourfuture.org/documents/con-20081009-obstruction-real-story-110.pdf

And this.
Quote:

March 1, 2010
GOP OBSTRUCTIONISM REACHES 'ASTONISHING' LEVEL.... For Americans who wonder why it seems like nothing gets done in Washington, the answer couldn't be more obvious.

The frequency of filibusters -- plus threats to use them -- are measured by the number of times the upper chamber votes on cloture. Such votes test the majority's ability to hold together 60 members to break a filibuster.

Last year, the first of the 111th Congress, there were a record 112 cloture votes. In the first two months of 2010, the number already exceeds 40.

That means, with 10 months left to run in the 111th Congress, Republicans have turned to the filibuster or threatened its use at a pace that will more than triple the old record. [emphasis added]

Political science professor Jim Riddlesperger told the AP, ''The numbers are astonishing in this Congress."

That's absolutely true. The scope of this abuse is unlike anything we've ever seen in the United States. A discredited minority decided that elections no longer have consequences, and that blocking the Senate's ability to vote on the majority's agenda is entirely acceptable.

Of course, our political system encourages this misconduct -- the less than gets done, the angrier the public. The angrier the public, the more likely the majority party loses. Ergo, the minority has a powerful incentive to make sure nothing gets done.

I suspect the frustration felt by President Obama must be pretty intense. The country has effectively told him, "We need you to rescue an economy in freefall, oversee two costly wars, fix a deteriorating job market, address a crushing debt, and fix health care, energy policy, immigration, a housing crisis, a collapsing U.S. auto industry, the Gitmo mess, and America's reputation around the world. Oh, and for the first time in American history, literally every measure and nomination of any significance will be blocked by a Senate filibuster. Good luck."

And the great irony is, the party that's responsible for the gridlock and unprecedented obstructionism is poised to be rewarded for their ridiculous behavior.

I continue to think observers should characterize Republican filibuster abuse for what it is: an extraordinary political scandal that undermines the American government's ability to function.

—Steve Benen 10:45 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (28)
georgeob1
 
  3  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 04:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't have any argument at all with the proposition that the GOP spent the first two years of Obama's presidency trying very hard to obstruct the enactment of the highly partisan, distributionist agenda of the self-styled progressive Democrats then in charge of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. Of course they did that - they were the minority in both branches of government, and that's what minorities do in a democracy. I do, however, object to the obviously false dilemma that Cyclo has posed and which Cicerone so slavishly repeats. That Republicans had some success in obstructing Democrat programs to which they strongly objected, does not mean their behavior was either unprincipled or even harmful to the country. Indeed the evidence is accumulating that the legislative successes the democrats achieves with Obamacare and Dodd-Frank have already seriously injured our economic health and will continue to extend and delay an already unusually long recovery from the recent recession. We would likely be in much better shape today if the Republicans had been more effective in their highly principaled opposition to the progressive agenda which has already done us so much harm.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 04:48 pm
@georgeob1,
We're not talking about ObamaCare and Dodd-Frank; it's the goal of the GOP to destroy Obama - as they have stated early in Obama's tenure.

That's obstructionism; not politics as usual, and their objection to "all" the legislation brought forward.

Obama has attempted to work with the GOP, but they refused - almost every time.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 05:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Seriously, you don't sometimes recoil from the idiot argument, required by official Dem talking points, that it's all the Republicans' fault?

For the first two years of his term he had a filibuster proof majority in congress and still he and his followers were blaming Bush.


It isn't just 'he and his followers,' but a majority of those polled in the country. Polling has consistently shown that majorities of Americans place blame for our current fiscal problems mostly on Bush, next on Congressional Republicans, and lastly upon Obama.
Quote:

Since 2010, his party has controlled the Executive branch and half of the Legislative branch and he and his followers are blaming any and all problems on the House Republicans.


That's pretty much an accurate way to look at the situation, depending on how you define 'all problems.' The current crop of Congressional Republicans certainly aren't responsible for the recession, though they have done each and every thing they could to prevent the Dems from making anything better at all.

Quote:
When he loses in 2012 he and his followers will be blaming the Supreme Court.


Wishful thinking on your part, but hey - everyone needs a dream in life.

Quote:
Will your guy ever take responsibility for what goes wrong during his presidency? He certainly wants to take credit for whatever goes right.


Questions for you: has Obama said "I own this economy?" Has he taken credit or responsibility for the current situation publicly, in interviews? Has he said 'the buck stops at the top?' The answers to these questions refute your point completely.

Quote:
I appreciate that as a loyal partisan you have to defend him against Philistines like georgeob1 and me, but surely you are intelligent enough to know that his presidency, thus far, has not been a success...thanks to him.


I think Obama has enjoyed a great deal of success in his first term so far. I don't expect you to agree, because - being the greedy asshole that you are - all you really care about is profits for business and in the stock market, which maybe haven't been so great. But there are a wide variety of successes that Obama could point to.

Quote:
Can you honestly say Jimmy Carter's one term presidency was a success? Is there a limit to your partisanship?


I couldn't say; I wasn't alive during the majority of his presidency. Certainly history has recorded it as a failure - much as Bush has been recorded as a failure.

Quote:
The book on Jimmy is going to be the book on Barack: a failed presidency during which economic conditions worsened and internationally, American prestige took a big hit.

I'll say this for him though, his actually not quite as feckless as Carter was. At least he has the excuse of never running anything in his life before he won the presidency.


It's nice that people have opinions about things. Part of what makes America special.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  -1  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 05:40 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:

I don't have any argument at all with the proposition that the GOP spent the first two years of Obama's presidency trying very hard to obstruct the enactment of the highly partisan, distributionist agenda of the self-styled progressive Democrats then in charge of both houses of Congress and the Presidency.


Well that's refreshing, seeing as in the past you've claimed that there's no such thing as Obstructionism at all.

'Distributionist' agenda is just a fancy way of you complaining about people who want to raise YOUR taxes without first screwing over poor people. It's cute.

Quote:
That Republicans had some success in obstructing Democrat programs to which they strongly objected, does not mean their behavior was either unprincipled or even harmful to the country.


Yes, it absolutely does. You don't want to admit that the people you've been cheering along have indeed acted in an unprincipled fashion and have harmed the country, because of the negative reflection upon you for supporting them. But the evidence couldn't be clearer, and you don't ever respond to the individual points of evidence - just a never-ending mantra about how the Dems suck and the GOP are all principled White Knights who were fighting as hard as they could to stop the Evil Socialist Regime.

I challenge you to provide a single shred of evidence that the Dodd-Frank bill has 'already seriously injured' our economy. Specific evidence.

Man, you guys really have swallowed your own bullshit. It's as if you have forgotten that most of the things you say are just lies to justify your own personal greed; you really have internalized them. Increasing radicalism in the right-wing is a sight to behold.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  3  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 06:49 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Do you now claim to know the inner motives of Republicans in the Congress? Are you confident their opposition to the Democrat legislative initiatives was not based on their beliefs concerning what would be truly good for the country in current circumstances? Since you can't possibly know their motives, the best you can do is make inferences from the facts, and the facts suggest that their opposition (and obstruction) was thoughtful, purposeful, and conformed to the expressed wishes of their constituents.

There is ample evidence that large numbers of their voting constituents supported their actions: indeed that was the driver behind the very large gains the Republicans achieved in the last Congressional election. How else do you explain the spontaneous emergence of the tea party movement?

Republican voters opposed Cap & Trade by large margins and their representatives (and the timidity of the Democrats in the face of it) were responsible for stopping it. Republicans have a long history in opposing further extention of the interstate commerce power in the Federal government and would never have supported Federal law compelling the purchase of anything. The insurance & tort reform measures for health care Republicans did support were either omitted or contradicted by other provisions in the massive Obamacare bill that was passed. There was growing opposition among Republicans to many provisions of the earlier Sarbanes Oxley bill regulating public companies: Dodd Frank added significantly to provisions they already didn't like. In the wake of the banking collapse Republicans had little ability to influence that legislation and little imput to the bill that resulted.

In short your accusations are at best implausible. Your behavior here suggests you truly believe that the 2008 election and the strength of your convictions and those of other like-minded progressives entitled you to get exactly what you want. Unfortunately our government does not and never has worked that way. The very structure of our government was expressly designed to fragment power and employs diverse checks and balances to limit the power of majorities and protect that of minorities.

You are very free with your moral judgments and accusations. You have called me a liar and accused me of basing my political views on personal greed and a lack of concern for others. I would be quite offended were it not for the comedy involved in the self-important bombast and hyperbole that accompanies your overwrought statements. You demean yourself in doing this.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 07:09 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:

Do you now claim to know the inner motives of Republicans in the Congress?


You don't have to be a ******* psychic. McConnell has been very open about his strategy since early 2009: block each and every single thing that Obama and the Dems want, even if the Dems are willing to negotiate and even if they had supported the ideas in the past. Even to the extent where many of your 'principled' Republicans were voting against bills they had previously co-sponsored.

But don't take my word for it. Just ask Mitch himself:

Quote:
"The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president," McConnell said, adding, "Our single biggest political goal is to give [the Republican] nominee for president the maximum opportunity to be successful."


http://nationaljournal.com/member/magazine/top-gop-priority-make-obama-a-one-term-president-20101023

Quote:
Republicans have a long history in opposing further extention of the interstate commerce power in the Federal government and would never have supported Federal law compelling the purchase of anything.


Nah, Republicans have never had the idea of compelling the purchase of anything, let alone health care coverage. Right?

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Testimony/Laying-the-Groundwork-for-Universal-Health-Care-Coverage

Quote:
You are very free with your moral judgments and accusations.


No more so than you.

Quote:
You have called me a liar and accused me of basing my political views on personal greed and a lack of concern for others. I would be quite offended were it not for the comedy involved in the self-important bombast and hyperbole that accompanies your overwrought statements. You demean yourself in doing this.


No more than you do with your continual sneering superciliousness, and refusal to take any sort responsibility for the accuracy or validity of your statements and arguments.

Outside of your fellow right-wingers - who also occasionally get their fee-fees hurt because I don't hold back when describing their behavior - do you see people lining up left and right to criticize me for how badly I'm demeaning myself? You ought to at least entertain the possibility that your judgement in this matter may not be exactly impartial.

Cycloptichorn

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 25 Aug, 2011 07:31 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
White House Appears To Want To Shame The Shameless Mitch McConnell And Company

by Tommy Christopher | 7:48 am, October 27th, 2010

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s remarkably honest confession to National Journal’s Major Garrett that “The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president” got kicked around at length during Tuesday’s White House briefing. Press Secretary Robert Gibbs‘ responses seemed designed to shame the opposition into post-midterm cooperation, but several reporters, myself included, wondered from whence this hope sprang. The voters seem poised to reward McConnell’s party for two years of obstruction, so what is their incentive to do anything differently?

Before learning of McConnell’s remarks, President Obama told the National Journal that “I think it’s going to be important for Republicans to recognize that the American people aren’t simply looking for them to stand on the sidelines; they’re going to have to roll up their sleeves and get to work.”

McConnell’s statement, that the “single most important thing” is not jobs, or even tax cuts, but defeating President Obama, indicates that no such realization is forthcoming. As they have demonstrated these past two years, the Republicans are even willing to obstruct their own ideas in order to deny the President any political victory, so what hope is there that an even more powerful Republican minority (or majority?) will deign to do anything for the next two years?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 27 Aug, 2011 09:01 am
@cicerone imposter,
Some over-aged moron continues to give thumbs up/down as if it has any meaning beoyond their inmaturity.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Sat 27 Aug, 2011 07:21 pm
This has nothing to do with Obama. Rather, tonight, I have been reading about Jack Layton, the opposition leader in Canada. He died earlier in the week at the age of 61, and was eulogized today at a service.
I dabble in following politics there. He seemed to me to be a rather decent guy.
Any thoughts from Canada would be appreciated.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sat 27 Aug, 2011 07:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yeh. I fix the downs that I see are just about point of view, when I read them, assuming the original post was not full of flaming.
I don't down the posts of those I disagree with, and occasionally post them up if they are well said.
I agree about the immaturity, CI.
But that's the way of it.

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sat 27 Aug, 2011 07:29 pm
@realjohnboy,
Well, the good news is that you have electricity, RJB.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 27 Aug, 2011 07:30 pm
@ossobuco,
...and the internet. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Sun 28 Aug, 2011 10:19 am
Alan Abramowitz, who contributes to Larry Sabato's Crystal Ball website, is out (8/25) with an article entitled something like "The Electoral College - The Democrats' Friend."
He starts out by gently chastising readers that it is way too early to make predictions about the outcome of an election that is 14 months away. Then he makes predictions.
He notes that there has been no landslide in terms of POPULAR VOTE since 1984, with the last 3 elections being quite close (vote totals separating Dems/Repubs within 7%). This is not surprising since several polls have shown the split between those who identify with one party or the other is split 45%-45%.
He moves on to talking about how, since 1960, the individual states have become more and more predictable - at least by the pundits covering the contests.
In 1960, for example, 20 states were rated as highly competitive, 14 as moderately competitive, 7 as low, and 9 as very low.
By 2008, only 6 states came in as highly competitive (more about them in a bit), 9 as moderately competitive and 9 as low. 27 states made the list of having a very low level of competitiveness.
In other words, in 1960 perhaps 34 states were worth fighting over vs only 15 in 2008.
I find that to be quite strange.
Anyone still with me?
The selection of a president is based not on the popular vote but on the ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE. Abramowitz claims that, in 1960, 78% of the votes were in states that were highly or moderately competitive states while 22% were in states considered safe for one party or the other. By 2008, that had flipped. 69% of electoral votes were not really in play on election day while only 31% were.

Which brings us to 2012. Abramowitz claims that the Dems can claim 247 Electoral College votes either safe or leaning Dem while the Repubs have 206. 270 is the magic number to win.
There are 7 states - with a total of 85 electoral votes up for grabs:
Colorado (9); Florida (29); Iowa (6); Nevada (6); New Hampshire (4);
Ohio (18) and Virginia (13).
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sun 28 Aug, 2011 10:23 am
@realjohnboy,
rjb, It seems Florida and Ohio are the keys to winning.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sun 28 Aug, 2011 10:27 am
@Cycloptichorn,
What georgeob seems to forget is that some of the legislation that the GOP stopped were formerly "their" legislation. How can they now claim it was based on "principal?"
 

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