sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 01:15 pm
Ooh!

Thanks, Thomas!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 01:19 pm
From the analysis (after saying it would be likely to cost between $50 and 65 billion):

Quote:
According to estimates from the Urban/Brookings Tax Policy Center, $65 billion is roughly the amount of revenue that would be raised by restoring the top two personal income tax brackets and rates on dividends and capital gains to Clinton era levels, and retaining the estate tax with a $7 million exemption rather than repealing it. Thus, we believe that the Federal financing for the Obama health plan will be available using already-identified sources of revenue and without new taxes on the overwhelming majority of U.S. taxpayers.


There ya go. (Actually I've seen more "oh and how's he gonna PAY for it, huh?" stuff elsewhere than here, but putting this here.)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 01:26 pm
Oh boy, the speech is good too! "This is not who we are."

(I'm not finished yet, I'm just enthused...!)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 01:28 pm
Obama wrote:
But in the end, prevention only works if we take responsibility for our own health and make the right decisions in our own lives - if we eat the right foods, and stay active, and listen to our wives when they tell us to stop smoking.


:-D
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 01:36 pm
Only children seem to be mandated:

Quote:
(4) MANDATORY COVERAGE OF CHILDREN. Obama will require that all children have health care coverage. Obama will expand the number of options for young adults to get coverage, including by allowing young people up to age 25 to continue coverage through their parents' plans.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 01:51 pm
Well, the plan mostly seems to continue Obama's policy of avoiding hard confrontations and focusing on technical improvements that conservatives and liberals can agree on. It may well be easier to get majorities for than Edwards's plan is. Also, it's worth keeping in mind that any universal healthcare plan is tons better than the status quo. On the other hand, I have my doubts that any plan that avoids confrontation, that stops short of mandatory coverage for grown-ups, would deliver the improvements Obama's independent experts say it delivers.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 02:03 pm
One great news about both Obama's and Edwards's healthcare plans is that neither candidate has resorted to the kind of "two minus one equals four" arithmetic that doomed governor Bush's 2000 tax plan. I was afraid that Democrats would learn the wrong lessons from Bush's victories, so I'm happy this hasn't happened so far.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 02:31 pm
Thomas wrote:
nimh wrote:
  • What are these individual mandates?

"Individual mandate" means that each individual has a legal obligation to acquire health insurance.

nimh wrote:
  • How does their absence make Obama's proposal "pretty weak"?

I'd leave that for Bradford Plumer to answer. But the standard argument for individual mandates is that without them, bad risks would drive out good.

To see the problem, imagine a universal healthcare system in which citizens are free to participate or not. The state insures everyone at the same rate, and this rate is set to cover the average policy holder's medical bills. Under this regime, some prospective policy holders -- the most healthy ones -- would figure out that they are better off uninsured at the current rate. They leave the system. Now, the average risk of the remaining policy holders is worse. The state has to rise premiums to make the premiums cover the cost of the new average risk. Some policy holders -- the most healthy ones -- figure out that they are better off uninsured at the new rate... and so on until the system has no more policy holders.

There are only two ways to escape this viscious cycle: 1) Allow insurance companies to fit their premium to the individual policy holder. This defeats the original point of providing affordable insurance to the previously uninsurable. 2) Make it mandatory for people to get health insurance.

Thank you Thomas. You make a convincing case (dont know if you meant to :wink: ) for the argument that without a mandate, any proposal will indeed be weak, a stopgap of sorts.

Thomas wrote:
Well, the plan mostly seems to continue Obama's policy of avoiding hard confrontations and focusing on technical improvements that conservatives and liberals can agree on. It may well be easier to get majorities for than Edwards's plan is. Also, it's worth keeping in mind that any universal healthcare plan is tons better than the status quo. On the other hand, I have my doubts that any plan that avoids confrontation, that stops short of mandatory coverage for grown-ups, would deliver the improvements Obama's independent experts say it delivers.

This also confirms my general impressions / suspicions.

What that means for Obama's plan - well, I suppose we go back to my disagreement on tactics with Sozobe. If I interpret her correctly, she argues that the most effective way to achieve change is to propose incremental measures that are widely acceptable already, and will thus have the best chance to pass.

My take is a different one. I can see how this logic works within the Senate, and therefore applaud any unusual coalition-building - liberals working with social conservatives on some poverty or environment compromise proposal, liberals working with libertarians on some compromise stem cell research proposal, etc.

But when it comes to the interaction between President and Congress, the dynamic is very different. We've seen it now with Bush and the Democratic Congress on Iraq. A lot of this dynamic is simply about old-fashioned marketplace haggling. Bush says "50, I want 50!" The Dems say, "You crazy? 25!". "45, lower I wont go!", says Bush. "35 is all you ever gonna get!", the Democrats call out. Et cetera, until a compromise is reached. Lots of bluffing involved, and who blinks first loses. (In the case of the Iraq bill - the Democrats).

You dont go to the market stall and say, "Look, I'm a reasonable man, let's just be sensible about this. I know we will reach a compromise of 35 or 40 anyway, so I'm going to be rational and stick to what is feasible in the first place, and just ask 40. And then we dont have to play any games." Why not? Because the other guy will then just say - "40? No, I wont give more than 15!"

In the Senate, with it's de facto 60-seat majority threshold, everything is about painstakingly preparing compromises behind the scenes in advance. But between President and Congress there is a lot more negotiation on the fly going on, involving a bunch of posturing to see who will back down. And as Bush just showed with the Iraq bill, setting out high and giving in little often just pays off. If you're going to have a Democratic President but more than 40 Republicans in the Senate, or even a Republican majority in either of the chambers - or vice versa, of course - any President who makes his compromises already in advance before even going to Congress is just wasting ground. That, I still insist, we dont need after 8 years of Bush.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 02:33 pm
From what I know so far, I'm for a mandate. (For all, not just children.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 02:43 pm
nimh wrote:
Thank you Thomas. You make a convincing case (dont know if you meant to :wink: ) for the argument that without a mandate, any proposal will indeed be weak, a stopgap of sorts.

Believe me, it gives me no pleasure to admit that the free market works badly for healthcare. The downside to me of finding religion ridiculous is that I don't get to supplant facts with libertarian faith. Unfortunately for my political convictions, the empirical evidence and the theoretical case for adverse selection in free healthcare markets is strong. So I have no choice but to follow neoclassical economics when they lead towards socialized medicine. I'm always glad to make you happy though. Smile

nimh wrote:
In the Senate, with it's de facto 60-seat majority threshold, everything is about painstakingly preparing compromises behind the scenes in advance. But between President and Congress there is a lot more negotiation on the fly going on, involving a bunch of posturing to see who will back down. And as Bush just showed with the Iraq bill, setting out high and giving in little often just pays off. If you're going to have a Democratic President but more than 40 Republicans in the Senate, or even a Republican majority in either of the chambers - or vice versa, of course - any President who makes his compromises already in advance before even going to Congress is just wasting ground. That, I still insist, we dont need after 8 years of Bush.

Wow -- you almost sound as if you support the Edwards plan!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2007 02:46 pm
Looks like Obama would consider a mandate for all if it doesn't naturally get close to 100% coverage:

Quote:
Obama aides said they believe that everyone would buy health insurance if it were affordable enough, achieving universal care. If some Americans are still uninsured after a few years into the plan, Obama would reconsider how to get to 100 percent, the advisers said.


And that Edwards' plan has the mandate (found this when I was looking that part up):

Quote:
That's where he differs with Democratic rival John Edwards, the only other candidate who has laid out a specific plan. Edwards eventually would require every American to get health insurance, much like state requirements that drivers have auto insurance. Obama would only require that children be covered.


http://www.thenewstribune.com/Tacoma/24hour/front/story/73299.html

So Edwards "would eventually," while Obama assumes that it'd happen because the coverage is appealing enough but if that's not how it works out, he'd reconsider how to get coverage to 100%. (Which would likely have something to do with mandating it.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:04 pm
Thomas wrote:
So I have no choice but to follow neoclassical economics when they lead towards socialized medicine. I'm always glad to make you happy though. Smile

<smiles>

You are a charmer.. :wink:

Thomas wrote:
Wow -- you almost sound as if you support the Edwards plan!

<guffaws>

(Actually, I was more going off on a thought I'd had about my difference with Sozobe on strategy/choice earlier already - its just this turn in the conversation provided the hook for me to type it out after all. Made me laugh though Smile )
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:10 pm
sozobe wrote:
Looks like Obama would consider a mandate for all if it doesn't naturally get close to 100% coverage:

Quote:
Obama aides said they believe that everyone would buy health insurance if it were affordable enough, achieving universal care. If some Americans are still uninsured after a few years into the plan, Obama would reconsider how to get to 100 percent, the advisers said.


And that Edwards' plan has the mandate (found this when I was looking that part up):

Quote:
That's where he differs with Democratic rival John Edwards, the only other candidate who has laid out a specific plan. Edwards eventually would require every American to get health insurance, much like state requirements that drivers have auto insurance. Obama would only require that children be covered.


http://www.thenewstribune.com/Tacoma/24hour/front/story/73299.html

Yeah, that doesnt make it sound very different..

Reason why "a few years into the plan" made me wince though is, that - well, practically speaking, "a few years into the plan" will be the run-up to his re-election campaign, I mean, if we're imaging he'd be elected in the first place for a bit here. Nothing happens in year IV of a presidency. Which leaves the second term, IF he'd be re-elected.

I know that wanting too much too soon carries its own risks - Hillary's big health care plan for Bill's first years in power crashed and burnt. True.

But on the other hand, look at Reagan and Bush Jr. They pushed most of their radical, nation-changing policies (massive tax cuts for the rich and the like) through right at the beginning. Probably because second terms havent traditionally seen any President achieve much of his ideological agenda at all anymore, at least not since FDR.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:27 pm
I am finding myself in an odd position here.

You know how I always rail at those who merely regurgitate the spin they find in their partisan magazines or talkshows about events/policies/data/whatever -- rather than just actually taking a look at the raw news or data or actual proposal itself, and you know, make up their own mind. You know, people who instinctively and immediately turn to their favourite political columnist, and paste in what he said.

I hate that because it gives enormous power to the respective "echo chambers" - well, mostly its been the conservatives' one, since they're the ones who distrust the "MSM" so much that they dont trust themselves to just go on what a straight news story tells them. They know that it'll just be full of liberal bias, so they'd rather just skip the primary news reporting thing altogether and turn straight to what the news 'explicators' at the National Review or Weekly Standard or on Fox TV say.

Hate it. And yet, here I am. Because to be honest, this health insurance stuff just intimidates me. I think its tremendously important, but I dont trust myself to understand it. Like, I can check out what Obama said (or Edwards in or about his plan, or Hillary about her forthcoming one when the time comes), and I know that if they just use the right keyphrases ("everyone will be insured"), I'll think, oh thats OK then. This mandate stuff, if Thomas hadnt explained me, I wouldnt know. So I cant recognize, like, any flaws or see through where something's not being said, etc.

So what I found myself doing just now, is just skipping the files with what Obama himself said - and even any straight news reporting there might be about it on NYT and the like - and checking out the blogs. You know, at TNR, the Prospect, Salon, Slate - see what they were saying about it. How they found Obama's proposal to compare with Edwards' or whatever.

Just like those conservatives do. So thats how it works, eh? Its just insecurity! Course it is. Just hard to see behind the agressive bravado.

Anyway, all that on a metanote.

As bad luck has it though, I cant actually find anything on Slate or Salon about Obama's health care plan yet.

TNR does have a new item:

Quote:
OBAMA'S (NOT NECESSARILY) UNIVERSAL PLAN:

Brad's first reading of Obama's health care plan is correct. There's a mandate for kids to get insurance -- but not for adults. By my definition, that means it's not true universal coverage. At least not right away.

Now, there's still a ton to like in the plan, to be sure -- particularly the meaty material on bringing down costs and improving quality. Good regulation of the insurance industry, too, plus a new public program into which people can enroll.

Finally, sources close the Obama campaign are making a not-ridiculous case that the plan really will achieve universal coverage by 2012, as Obama is promising.

Still, I have some serious doubts about that last point, for reasons that have to do with politics as much as policy. Whether you get everybody or not at the outset is one of those big issues that actually matter (as opposed to second-order stuff like, for example, whether the subsidy to small businesses is as big as it should be, etc).

I'm going to hold off saying more until I've had time to digest the whole thing and consult a few more people. Plus I have to hear what Obama himself actually says today. Stay tuned.

-Jonathan Cohn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:43 pm
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 05:05 pm
Since it's reg req, here's the full article from the Prospect - well, minus most of the introductory flashback to the Vegas health care forum:

Quote:
A Lack of Audacity

How Obama's health care plan resembles the candidate himself.

Ezra Klein | May 30, 2007 | web only

The first stumble of Barack Obama's presidential campaign came last March, at the SEIU health care forum in Las Vegas, Nevada. [..] He stammered before the surprisingly tenacious grilling of 23-year-old Morgan Miller, who asked, simply, why his web site had more specificity on lead poisoning than health reform. [..] Obama pleaded, sensibly, for more time. "Keep in mind," he said, "that our campaign now is, I think, a little over eight weeks old … If we have another forum in a couple of months and it's still not there, I'll be in trouble."

He was already in trouble. The reviews were rough. Compared to John Edwards, who had a detailed plan, and Hillary Clinton, whose fluency with the subject is unmatched among the contenders, he seemed uncertain and adrift. [..] The attacks were a bit unfair, and Obama's protests on target. His campaign was new [..]. In fact, he did the right thing that day, offering principles in lieu of a plan. ("Number one," he told Miller, "we're going to have to make sure that everybody is in.") And yesterday, Obama released his health care proposal. If there's another forum, Obama won't be without a plan. But he may still be in trouble.

---

Number one, he didn't make sure everybody is in. There is perhaps no more surprising fact about Obama's plan than that it is not universal. It is certainly sold as if it is. In his speech unveiling the proposal, Obama bragged that, "[m]y plan begins by covering every American." But it doesn't. To say otherwise is rhetorical overreach, the appropriation of a popular and broadly-supported goal without an attendant mechanism for achieving it.

There are a few ways to achieve universal health care. You can create a single-payer plan that enrolls the population automatically. This is what Canada does, and how Medicare covers the elderly. You can create an employer mandate, where the primary responsibility falls on workplaces, and smaller mandates mop up the remainder. That was the approach showcased in the Clinton reforms of the early '90s. You can create an individual mandate that charges every American with procuring health insurance, and penalizes them if they don't. This is the approach favored by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts, Arnold Schwarzenegger in California, Ron Wyden in the Senate, and John Edwards in the presidential campaign. Obama's plan offers none of these approaches.

Instead, it seeks to make care cheaper and more accessible, assuming that, if it succeeds -- and that's a big if -- Americans will enroll of their own volition. It is a plan with the potential to be universal, rather than a universal plan. In that respect, it is very much like Obama himself.

There has been, in recent weeks and months, a robust debate over whether the Democrats should offer policy details. This conversation has operated on two levels. The first, explicit, level, is a political argument over whether presidential candidates are well-served by specificity, or at least whether it should be demanded of them. The second level, less often expressed, is really about Obama.

Few are looking to Clinton for details, as her public record is so well-known, and her policy commitments so lengthily expressed. Edwards, for his part, has unleashed a remarkable torrent of policy specifics, hoping to brand himself the candidate of ideas. It is Obama who has remained a relative cipher, the interplay of his ideology and political instincts opaque. His supporters appreciate his willingness to be expansive, to avoid labels, to evade the traps of specificity. His skeptics demand details, protesting that the Democratic base deserves to know whether he was a truly transformative candidate or merely an inspiring speaker.

His health care plan confirms the suspicions of both. He will be harmed by the specificity, even as his transformative rhetoric makes his actual plan seem dull and cautious in comparison. His is a plan of almosts. It is almost universal, without quite having the mechanisms to ensure nationwide coverage. It almost offers a public insurance option capable of serving as the seed of single-payer, but it is unclear who can enroll in it, and talks with his advisors suggest little enthusiasm or expectation that it will serve as a shining alternative to private insurance. It almost takes on the insurance industry, but asks for, rather than compels, their participation.

Make no mistake: There is much to praise in the plan. Obama has borrowed John Kerry's idea to have the government to absorb certain catastrophic costs, and while the details aren't spelled out, it's a promising concept. Insurers will no longer be able to discriminate based on preexisting conditions, and all children will have health coverage. If passed, our polity would be better, our people would be healthier, and our finances would be more secure.

Its failing, somewhat ironically, is a lack of audacity. It accepts the sectioning off of the market into the employed, the unemployed, the old, the young, and the poor. It does not consolidate the system into a coherent whole, preferring instead to preserve the patchwork quilt of programs and insurers that make health care so difficult to navigate. It does not sever the link between employment and health insurance, nor take a firm step towards single-payer, despite Obama's professed preference for such a system.

All the ingredients are in place for this to be a great plan -- a public insurance component, a commitment to universality, an understanding that coherence is better than fractiousness, a willingness to regulate the insurance industry -- but, in each case, at the last second, the policy is hedged before the fulfillment of its purpose. In this, Obama's plan is not dissimilar from Obama himself -- filled with obvious talent and undeniable appeal, sold with stunning rhetoric and grand hopes, but never quite delivering on the promises and potential. And so he remains the candidate of almosts. But as he told Morgan Miller back in March, there is time yet. And he is so very close.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 05:08 pm
This doodle by Obama fetched over 2000 dollars on EBay...

http://i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/a0/6e/b199_1_b.JPG
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 05:10 pm
Christ, what a lose-lose for the Dem candidates!

Don't come out with a plan, and you have no substance.

Come out with one, get endlessly criticized for not having a perfect plan.

Sheesh

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 05:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Christ, what a lose-lose for the Dem candidates!

Don't come out with a plan, and you have no substance.

Come out with one, get endlessly criticized for not having a perfect plan.

So what alternative do you suggest? Stay silent about flaws in Democratic candidates' plans, like, close the ranks? (And would you do that yourself with flaws in, say, a plan of Hillary's?)

Sorry, but I think this is a straw man you're putting up. Edward's gotten a lot of flack - both justified (lousy debate performance in '04, mechanically repeated robo-speeches) and unjustified. But I didnt see people fall over his health care plan the way they appear to be falling over Obama's. So perhaps its not so much a question of, well, whatever plan they put out people will endlessly criticize it - as rather, you know, it might just really not be very good..

And then what are we supposed to do? Not mention that out of fear of advantaging the Reps?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 05:27 pm
nimh wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Christ, what a lose-lose for the Dem candidates!

Don't come out with a plan, and you have no substance.

Come out with one, get endlessly criticized for not having a perfect plan.

So what alternative do you suggest? Stay silent about flaws in Democratic candidates' plans, like, close the ranks? (And would you do that yourself with flaws in, say, a plan of Hillary's?)

Sorry, but I think this is a straw man you're putting up. Edward's gotten a lot of flack - both justified (lousy debate performance in '04, mechanically repeated robo-speeches) and unjustified. But I didnt see people fall over his health care plan the way they appear to be falling over Obama's. So perhaps its not so much a question of, well, whatever plan they put out people will endlessly criticize it - as rather, you know, it might just really not be very good..

And then what are we supposed to do? Not mention that out of fear of advantaging the Reps?


No, it isn't that I think anyone at all is doing anything wrong; or specifically supporting Obama's plan, though I think it has many good points.

But it is a lose-lose for candidates. They lose either way. I suspect that they mostly know this going into it, and basically ignore all the comments on the plan for the first few weeks.

My problem is the expectation that people seem to have that the 'plan' will be a solid one, with no problems, right off of the bat. I've never seen a plan like that in my life, especially not for fiendishly complicated topics.

I can't offer advice to the nebulous cloud of commentators out there, but I would say: the Obama plan ain't bad for a first or second draft, which is essentially what any plan such of this nature is, when presented at this time.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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