Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 02:31 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

Splitting hairs, perhaps, but there have been two other cases ruling that the health care bill is constitutional. This will certainly end up in the Supreme Court once a lower court ruling is agreed upon as being the appropriate test case.


Important to note that this ruling was solely for the Mandate, and not the overall bill itself.

Cycloptichorn
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 02:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
True, Cyclo, but without the mandate the whole bill falls apart. Would you agree?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 02:40 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

True, Cyclo, but without the mandate the whole bill falls apart. Would you agree?


You might think so, but legally, it doesn't. The rules and laws requiring insurers to perform certain actions are still in place even if the mandate is gone.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Comments by ican are in red
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You have nothing better than the 'Oh yeah? You're stupid!' argument, Ican. It is not persuasive in the slightest.
This statement of yours is unsupported by any rational argument of yours.

I ask you directly: who wrote the bill that causes taxes to go up on everyone, including the Estate tax, in 2011? Which party wrote it? Which signed the bill?
The last version of the bill to cut taxes was written, adopted and signed by Republicans with the approval of some Democrats in 2003. The bill scheduled the tax cuts to expire by the end of 2010. In 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010, the Republicans repeatedly asked the Democrat majoritties in both houses of Congress to make these tax cuts permanent. But the Democrat majorities have done nothing to make these tax cuts permanent.


Answer that and you'll know who to blame for the situation.
Therefore the Democrat majorities 2007 thru 2010 are responsible for NOT making these tax cuts permanent. Therefore, I blame the Democrat majorities for not making these tax cuts permanent

Quote:
Such sales have resulted in the sale of business property to pay the tax. Such sales of business property have often resulted in the reduction of the business that resulted in reductions in the number of the business's employees.

Provide proof that this is true.
It's obviously true that when inheritance taxes have taxed inherited businesses, such that those who inherited such businesses could not pay the inheritance tax without selling part or all of the business, the business was reduced by sale of part or all of it. You provide proof that such has NEVER happened.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:02 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
You provide proof that such has NEVER happened.


You're the one who made the claim, Ican. It is upon you to prove it, not the person who says your claim is untrue.

If this really is a problem like you say, it should be exceedingly easy to do so; but I bet you will be unable to do so.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:12 pm
@revelette,
If the Supreme Court rules that any part of the healthcare bill is unconstitutional, then the whole bill is thereby ruled unconstitutional, because the writers of the bill forgot to include a statement equivalent to the following statement:
Should any part of this bill be ruled unconstitutional, the rest of the bill is not thereby ruled unconstitutional.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:13 pm
This ruling in Virginia rightfully and vigorously repudiates Obamacare.
okie
 
  -1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:18 pm
@H2O MAN,
I presume this could eventually go to the Supreme Court, if they accept the case? Then it depends upon their devotion to the Constitution as it is written and intended, or if they will try to find a way around it to essentially rewrite the Constitution or interpret it to their preference.

I see Breyer is trying to twist the Constitution to say the founders always intended to have gun control. Of course their "gun control" was probably far different from Breyer's version.
http://nation.foxnews.com/founding-fathers/2010/12/13/justice-breyer-founding-fathers-were-gun-control

And libs simply cannot understand why the Tea Party Movement has occurred!!
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I wrote: You provide proof that such has NEVER happened.

You're the one, Cycloptichorn, who is by implication alleging that such NEVER happened. It is upon you to prove that it NEVER happened, not the person who says provide proof that such NEVER happened.

If you think it NEVER happened, it should be straight forward for you to prove it NEVER happened, without resorting to the fallacy that no one can prove a negative is true.

Example, scientists have proven NOT the earth and NOT the sun and NOT our galaxy are the center of the universe. They proved it by proving that the center of the universe is somewhere else.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:45 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
You're the one, Cycloptichorn, who is by implication alleging that such NEVER happened.


Not never, but not enough to be a significant problem that anyone should be concerned with.

I'm never under any burden to provide proof that what YOU say is true. As the proponent of an argument, the proof lies with you. This is basic debating, which you seem to know as little about as you do anything else.

I dare you - find examples, real ones - of the estate tax putting businesses out of business. Can you meet the challenge, or are you just full of ****?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:51 pm
@ican711nm,
Hey ican, it is simple common sense that it has happened. Why can't cyclops then know that it has probably happened? Cyclops should at least read the following, which provides proof enough, plus other useful information.
http://www.nodeathtax.org/deathtax/killthedeathtax
"When surveyed, family businesses say that the estate tax is one of the leading causes of failure. Nearly two-thirds (64 percent) of respondents in one survey of family businesses reported that the estate tax makes survival of the business more difficult.[iv] In another survey, 98 percent of heirs cited “needed to raise funds to pay estate taxes” when asked why family businesses fail."
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 03:55 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Ican's latest: You're the one, Cycloptichorn, who is by implication alleging that such NEVER happened.


Let's play follow the dialog and look for Cy's "implication".

=============================

Ican: Such sales of business property have often resulted in the reduction of the business that resulted in reductions in the number of the business's employees.

Cy: Provide proof that this is true. [so far no "implication"]

Ican: It's obviously true that when inheritance taxes have taxed inherited businesses, such that those who inherited such businesses could not pay the inheritance tax without selling part or all of the business, the business was reduced by sale of part or all of it. You provide proof that such has NEVER happened.

Cy: You're the one who made the claim, Ican. It is upon you to prove it, not the person who says your claim is untrue.

If this really is a problem like you say, it should be exceedingly easy to do so; but I bet you will be unable to do so. [still no such "implication"]

Ican: You're the one, Cycloptichorn, who is by implication alleging that such NEVER happened. It is upon you to prove that it NEVER happened, not the person who says provide proof that such NEVER happened.

====================

Where, in this conversation chain, did Cy ever implicate that it never happened, Ican?

Memes are often like that Ican, they lack substance. I guess that's why they are called memes.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:00 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Hey ican, it is simple common sense that it has happened. Why can't cyclops then know that it has probably happened?


What is it with you and Ican [and h2oman, MM, ...] that you so lack in reading comprehension skills?

Cy didn't say that it has never happened. Read the dialog again. That's was Ican's crazy assumption.

Now, in order to provide "proof" you go to nodeathtaxes.org to see if you can find a few more memes to support your ideas.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:01 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Hey ican, it is simple common sense that it has happened. Why can't cyclops then know that it has probably happened? Cyclops should at least read the following, which provides proof enough, plus other useful information.
http://www.nodeathtax.org/deathtax/killthedeathtax
"When surveyed, family businesses say that the estate tax is one of the leading causes of failure. Nearly two-thirds (64 percent) of respondents in one survey of family businesses reported that the estate tax makes survival of the business more difficult.[iv] In another survey, 98 percent of heirs cited “needed to raise funds to pay estate taxes” when asked why family businesses fail."


Who gives a **** about what heirs have to say?!?!? Truly ridiculous. Asking people 'do you want to receive less money?' What do you expect them to say?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:06 pm
@okie,
Would you agree or disagree, Okie, that your source, "kill the death tax," may be a bit biased?
As an aside, when my parents died, they had something like $3M in assets. Thanks to a knowledgeable attorney and some pre-planning, there was no tax due. I think that is the norm.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:11 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

True, Cyclo, but without the mandate the whole bill falls apart. Would you agree?


Of course it does, yet somehow Cyclo seems to think the legislation can survive striking down the mandate.

In fact, on another thread he expressed his opinion that this decision was a win, because the law's requirements on private insurers will remain and the funding intended to be provided by the mandate will disappear, thereby ensuring that the private insurers will go out of business that much sooner.

Without private insurance what is left but the so-called public option, or socialized medicine.

Without the mandate the law will be ripe for repeal or serious revision.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:

Without the mandate the law will be ripe for repeal or serious revision.


Well, you may think so, but there are a few facts to consider:

1, that only one lower-court judge has currently ruled against the mandate, while two others have ruled in FAVOR of it;

2, that 12 OTHER lower-court judges have simply refused to hear the case in the first place.

3, that the Appeals court is very likely to overturn the current decision.

4, that the rest of the bill - other than the mandate - is EXTREMELY popular, and it will be very difficult politically to campaign on repealing these provisions.

You may think that the bill makes no sense without the mandate, but the law is the law, and any supposition on your part that a repeal or major change will happen is foolish at best.

I would caution all against getting excited about a single lower-court ruling, by a very Conservative judge, who was shopped around for in VA by a very Conservative AG.

Quote:

Without private insurance what is left but the so-called public option, or socialized medicine.


I hope so, because it's far superior to our current sitch.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The answer of course is that the Republicans did it and the expirations built into the tax cuts were mandated by the "paygo" provisions then applicable to new tax & appropriations initiatives, and the failure of the Bush administation to get any restructuring of Social Security through the Congress (to reduce government future liabilities and therefore pay for the cuts).

The estate tax issue is distorted by both sides of the political spectrum. Some level of estate taxation is necessary to prevent the excess accumulation of wealth in one class. However it is generally fairly easy to avoid these taxes through gifts and the creation of trusts. The super rich like Bill Gates and others going back to Andrew Carnegie generally like to give much of their wealth away themselves, to those they choose, rather than letting the government do it - however, this too accomplishes much the same thing. For smaller estates there is the danger of the destructive liquidation of family owned businesses and the negative incentives created for the prudent management of family assets and wealth and providing for one's offspring.


The social and economic mobility of this country is one of our best assets and it should be preserved - and that calls for limitations on the concentration of wealth. However, too much levelling will yield only the shabby poverty stagnation and drab poverty that characterized the socialist states of the 20th century. I believe this issue is analogous to the debate over higher income taxes on "the rich". Democrats point out that folks making over a million/year are accumulating a greater reolative share of our wealth and propose to raise the taxes of everyone making over $250K to address the problem - blissfully ignoring the fact that it is a long way from $250K/year to one million. Similarly Republicans suggest that everyone potentially subject to such taxes in a small business owner and Job creator. Both are distorting obvious facts to achieve their political prejudices.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Of course "abuse" means "marital infidelity" to some but that could just be the loss of decency in language.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Mon 13 Dec, 2010 04:30 pm
Wow -

Quote:
Henry E. Hudson, the federal judge in Virginia who just ruled health care reform unconstitutional, owns between $15,000 and $50,000 in a GOP political consulting firm that worked against health care reform. You don't say!

As the Huffington Post and others first noted last July, Hudson's annual financial disclosures show that he owns a sizable chunk of Campaign Solutions, Inc., a Republican consulting firm that worked this election cycle for John Boehner, Michele Bachmann, John McCain, and a whole host of other GOP candidates who've placed the purported unconstitutionality of health care reform at the center of their political platforms. Since 2003, according to the disclosures, Hudson has earned between $32,000 and $108,000 in dividends from his shares in the firm (federal rules only require judges to report ranges of income).


You don't say, indeed!

Cycloptichorn
 

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