Obama '08?

@JTT,

I notice that South Vietnam existed prior to 1954. You claimed the US created it when the installed a dictator. And you accused me of being asinine?

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@mysteryman,

Why not, for once in your life, try a measure of honesty, MM. You have me on "ignore" because you can't face the fact that the USA is a terrorist nation, a nation that is responsible for, because of a prolific series of war crimes, the deaths of upwards of 5 million people.

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@JTT,

No, I cant accept the fact that you blame EVERY conflict the US was ever involved in on the US.
You have an anti US bias, and refuse to see or accept any facts that dont fit into your very narrow mindset.

I have never denied that the US is guilty of some horrific things.
You, on the other hand, have constantly denied the fact that the US has done as much if not more good around the world.

So, I refuse to argue with you.

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@spendius,

Quote:

Ho Chi Min or whatever his name was could have said that he too wished Coca Cola and McDonalds to come to his people rather than his rationing being exported south.

He did, Spendi, he asked the USA to support the Vietnamese people's independence and yet war criminals like George still murdered around 3 million people. They did so by committing horrendous war crimes.

They did so by specifically targeting civilians to try to wear down their resistance. That is terrorism that matches the worst of the worst.

And yet we still have folks like Parados and MM trying to provide excuses for this level of malevolent evil. And Gob, wringing his hands over a few of his war criminal compatriots who died. No mention of the millions of Vietnamese.

The USA is so good at finding and deporting every little war criminal functionary from WWII but how many war criminals enjoy freedom in the USA.

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

That is why I have him on ignore.

Yup, you are one trustworthy guy, MM.

Quote:

I have never denied that the US is guilty of some horrific things.
You, on the other hand, have constantly denied the fact that the US has done as much if not more good around the world.

You stupid little miscreant. Get this straight once and for all so that you never utter this drivel again. The good does not make war crimes disappear.

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@JTT,

Good morning, MM:

JTT wrote:

You stupid little miscreant.

Good luck in our Fantasy Football matchup.

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@realjohnboy,

Quote:

Good luck in our Fantasy Football matchup.

Yes, good luck to all you participants in this important little affair.

I think that the Iraqis and Afghans are also doing a Fantasy Football matchup. The winners in those countries get some bones of a long lost relative.

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@spendius,

I agree, spendi.

JTT has many valid points on the aggressions of the US. OTOH, his position that all members of the military are equally culpable, and all citizens in a democracy are who's to blame doesn't wash. Soldiers do what they're told to do. Citizens vote for leaders to protect them and to preserve the Constitution. It's all supposed to be on the up-and-up. We (soldiers and citizens) consider ourselves honest people with a high degree of integrity. And, in many ways we are. In many other ways, however, we're greedy and conniving and self-serving to the point that very few people have an understanding of what goes on to keep our gas flowing, our extremely comfortable standard of living elevated, and our dreams of "mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet" a reality.

JTT has made the point in the past that no one here has the stomach for bringing our "war criminals" to trial. First, it would force us to face what happens while we keep our heads in the sand and the gas nozzles in our SUVs. It would also be perceived in some quarters as being weak -- something we go to extreme lengths to avoid. I have no idea why the previous administration wasn't brought up on charges for invading Iraq. I suggested it was due to exhaustion and the relief of surviving 8 years under GWB that caused folks to want to move on and just get out of there as quickly as possible.

Personally, I have the stomach for it. I think it's time that info like that being published through Wikileak becomes available to the public. I think we need to be aware of our standing in the world and understand what happens to others that allows us to be so smug. Ceili's post on the "Wings of the Dove" thread speaks volumes.

I think it's unfortunate that JTT presentation is so confrontational that his message is lost due to the reputation of the messenger. I'd much prefer to see a reasoned discussion by opposing views. Accusing George of being a war criminal does nothing to invite discussion. I think that's unfortunate.

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@JTT,

I think you've missed my point JTT. I'm not denying the evil in these things. I'm saying that it is not right to attack George for them when the responsibility rests with the American people. He steered a device which it took hundreds of thousands of people to design, construct, supply and fund and they either knew what it was for or they were playing fancy Meccano. And millions of people voted for those who decided to use it.

I'll accept that George opens himself up to such attacks by parading his military record but so do others who do the same thing.

We are none of us perfect and I suspect that if we were we would be in the ****.

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@JPB,

Quote:

Soldiers do what they're told to do. Citizens vote for leaders to protect them and to preserve the Constitution. It's all supposed to be on the up-and-up.

Therein lies the rub. So do underlings in the Mafia do what they're told to do, JPB.

Citizens must those responsible for these things their governments do, which I assure you, though you already know, are not on the up and up.

Quote:

Accusing George of being a war criminal does nothing to invite discussion. I think that's unfortunate.

I wonder what the difference might be between a little functionary like John Demjanjuk and these pilots and ground troops who purposefully attacked Vietnamese civilians.

What I'm troubled by, immensely, is the silly notion that these war crimes and war criminals shouldn't be addressed head on. You don't see a whole lot of sympathy spoken here for child molesters, rapists, murders. How would those who participated, actively, three different times, in war crimes of horrific proportions be any different?

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@JPB,

Quote:

I'd much prefer to see a reasoned discussion by opposing views.

Start a thread, JPB, please.

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@spendius,

Quote:

I think you've missed my point JTT. I'm not denying the evil in these things. I'm saying that it is not right to attack George for them when the responsibility rests with the American people. He steered a device which it took hundreds of thousands of people to design, construct, supply and fund and they either knew what it was for or they were playing fancy Meccano. And millions of people voted for those who decided to use it.

I'll accept that George opens himself up to such attacks by parading his military record but so do others who do the same thing.

We are none of us perfect and I suspect that if we were we would be in the ****.

I haven't missed your point at all, Spendi.

Would you make the same argument for Hitler. He masterminded one of the greatest military buildups ever, oversaw the production of ingenious military devices, brought back the notion of pride to millions.

But there was a down side to this, I'm afraid.

Leaders and commanders can't be held responsible for war crimes as if the exist in a vacuum. Are they not held responsible for the war crimes committed by those under them?

What then might you want to call the actions of those who commit the atrocities?

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@JTT,

EDIT

Quote:

Citizens must those responsible for these things their governments do, which I assure you, though you already know, are not on the up and up.

should have read,

Citizens must hold those responsible for these things their governments do, which I assure you, though you already know, are not on the up and up.

What possible higher duty could a citizen in a country that operates by the rule of law have other than to demand that the rule of law be upheld?

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@JPB,

I agree that while JTT (is JTT a she?) does make some valid points, I disagree with JTT that all members of the military and the citizenry are culpable. To say that is to demand that each citizen has a crystal ball and knows exactly what each elected official will do then votes for said person anyway.

And, I, too, have the stomach for bringing war criminals to trial.

Frankly, I thought Gerald Ford was wrong to pardon Nixon. I think a trial would have strengthened the nation.

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@plainoldme,

Quote:

I agree that while JTT (is JTT a she?) does make some valid points, I disagree with JTT that all members of the military and the citizenry are culpable. To say that is to demand that each citizen has a crystal ball and knows exactly what each elected official will do then votes for said person anyway.

No, to say this is to point up that every citizen needn't have a crystal ball because no one would suggest that citizens prevent theoretical future escapades. It is the duty of each citizen to demand that those who have broken the law are held to account.

If this type of responsibility had been exercised years ago, it would have prevented the deaths of millions, that's millions, folks. And it would have done immeasurable good for the USA, just as a trial for Nixon would have done.

Right now, you have the dismally unfair situation where the USA, on rare rare occasions, mounts a concerted propaganda campaign using some poor little grunt as an example of how the USA is so righteous.

That's almost a war crime in itself.

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@JTT,

Quote:

I haven't missed your point at all, Spendi.

Yes you have. It is your unfairness in singling out George for that level of vituperation that I am drawing your attention to.

I would make the argument for a Luftwaffe pilot. Not for the German High Command.

Those who give the orders are responsible. That's the electorate.

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@JPB,

JPB wrote:

....I think it's unfortunate that JTT presentation is so confrontational that his message is lost due to the reputation of the messenger.

The message is lost due to a flaw unrelated to the reputation of the messenger: incoherence. Back when I used to read JTT's hysterical posts I was invariably reminded of a story about coded messages from London's War Ministry to an African colony at the beginning of WWI. The exchange read:

Quote:

"War is declared. Arrest all enemy aliens in your district." Back came the reply to the War Ministry: "Have arrested four Germans, six Belgians, four Frenchmen, two Italians, three Austrians and an American. Please advise immediately who we are at war with."

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@spendius,

Quote:

Yes you have. It is your unfairness in singling out George for that level of vituperation that I am drawing your attention to.

So you agree that he is a war criminal. You just don't like the level of "vituperative". What's vituperative about pointing out similarities between war criminals? Is there some measure of kindness we are to extend to these folks beyond a fair trial?

Quote:

I would make the argument for a Luftwaffe pilot. Not for the German High Command.

Those who give the orders are responsible. That's the electorate.

Is there a difference between a Luftwaffe pilot who commits war crimes and an American pilot who does the same?

The electorate has never been held responsible, save for the expressions of wonder as to why they didn't speak out.

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@High Seas,

When is your next overseas assignment, HS? As soon as those pesky little infections clear up?

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@JTT,

Quote:

So you agree that he is a war criminal.

No I don't and I've explained why. If you don't understand it what can I do?

Quote:

Is there a difference between a Luftwaffe pilot who commits war crimes and an American pilot who does the same?

No. Obviously. I don't see what your point is. Where's the war crime? Are you the International Court? If we don't have some realpolitik to counteract barrack room lawyers you will soon be barricaded in your house.

Quote:

The electorate has never been held responsible, save for the expressions of wonder as to why they didn't speak out.

Well- that's understandable. It doesn't alter the responsibilty though. It's no good speaking out after the event to try to get yourself some Brownie points for care and compassion from a comfy armchair.

Pussy-footing with Hitler was a war crime in my book.

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