OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:43 am
Thomas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Of the three main contenders, he's the one who's been taking the clearest and most strident stands. He's definitely got the most progressive/liberal/leftwing platform of them. Which is why I like him.

I like him for the other half -- because he takes the clearest and most strident stands.
He does do that, but he's still the same scumbag that pretended to channel a dead baby for money, so how can you believe him? I should probably stop calling him a scumbag, because that may be considered an unfair insult to bags that are filled with scum.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:47 am
"Pretended to channel a dead baby for money?" What do you mean by that?
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nimh
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:47 am
ossobuco wrote:
I don't know that Obama is my favorite, me being left of him, but I like him.
I didn't get what was all so terrible about any skippos or mispos in his autobiography. Well, yes, the one guy. On the other hand, I'm sure I can name people in my life who would describe stuff differently.

It's sort of annoying, all the going after chaff. Just wait, I'm sure all candidates have serious bits to answer, or, that they should have, and serious bits are what matter.

Right now it looks like reporters are going after toe detritus.

All true. They certainly seem to have come up with zilch of significance so far, which makes you think/hope there's actually nothing out there, which speaks well of Obama.

One thing though that I think people may optimistically overlook is that journalists and voters go on different compasses here.

Journalists are out to uncover scandals, to discover something new, something Obama himself hasnt talked about, or that turns out to be different from how he wrote about it. Because then he can be said To Have Lied About His Past, which is a capital crime in inside politics. Without that, there's no scoop.

Ergo, anything Obama has already frankly and honestly written about in his books, is of null interest to a digging journalist. No glory in that - nothing to discover, its all already there.

Thing is, how many voters have read Obama's autobiography? How many have even followed the news closely enough to have picked up on the main things? That he's half-Kenyan, that he travelled to Kenya last year - that may have registered with, I dunno, about a third of 'em. That he spent childhood years in Indonesia, after the last rather pathetic attempts to have "outed" him as a child Muslim or as having attended a "madrassa", perhaps the same proportion.

But that he used cocaine, for example? We know, the journalists know, those who follow the politics news have read about how he's written about that, but your average voter? They dont know. There's nothing for journalists to "uncover" here, but dont even think its not going to come back up in the 2008 campaign, either in the last primary stretch or, more likely, in the general campaign if he's made it through.

And I mean, its just 15 years ago that Clinton felt he needed to say he had "not inhaled", and that was just about a joint.

As for his multicultural upbringing, thats a plus of course for those of us who are looking for a President to bring expertise and knowledge of the world and a cosmopolitan outlook. But I'm afraid thats just us liberals (with the occasional idealist conservative like O'Bill or Lash as honorable members of the club).

I dont think theres much or anything of substance to the "he was a Muslim when he was eight!" claims (and I mean, so what?). But I do think that in the final stretch, when the majority of voters tunes in, his multicultural upbringing is going to play against him. Its not for no reason that one of the key indicators that polls use is (variations of) the questions, "do you think [Candidate A] cares about people like you", "do you think [Candidate A] is in touch with the concerns of people like you". To a large extent, people vote for someone they think is like them. Someone who looks and talks like them. The down-home conservative rather than the intellectual liberal, never mind who's the smarter one. The guy whom you'd kick back with, as paull said.

I hate that kind of thinking - I think it's stupid. You want the most qualified for the job, not the most familiar. You're voting for President, not BBQ guest. But thats how it goes. And here's Obama, who isnt just black (and I'm still sceptical about how ready the Americans are to vote in a black President, though I'm a little more hopeful than when this thread started), but who grew up abroad (at least part of the time), whose childhood friends were Indonesian or Muslim or whatnot, and who went on to use coke and then admire a somewhat radical urban black community leader, before settling down as a mainstream politician, if an empathically idealistic and principled one. Thats not the kind of autobiography that will make a lot of American voters go, ah yeah here's a guy like me, he's one of us, a regular / common / downhome / whatever it is voters prefer kind of guy.

None of this comes up or out now, because, well, there's nothing to "uncover" here - journalists know all about it, Obama wrote all about it himself, those who are following the primary news also probably already know about it - no scoop to be had, which is why we get this detritus instead. I dont think it'd even come up much in the primary campaign at all, since Democratic primary voters are more liberal in outlook than your regular American, so they wont care as much, and since Obama's main rival will be Hillary, and when it comes to rivalling each other in who's the more common-folksy and regular there's nothing to win for her, so she has little reason to go there. But dont even think, if Obama makes it through, that its not going to all come up with a vengeance in the final stretch.
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nimh
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:59 am
okie wrote:
All I am asking is - do you think Hillary's campaign has absolutely nothing to do with feeding little tips to their friends in the press, concerning these little negative hits on Obama every week or two or three?

Hillary's people, I'm sure, are doing their bit. But they're hardly alone. I'm sure the Republican folks are doing their anti-Obama bit as well. For the Republicans, Hillary is a safe opponent. She's got as high a set of negatives as one can get; conservatives are as fired up against her as they could be against anyone; and they know exactly what they can expect from Hillary, so a campaign is easily planned or structured.

Obama, on the other hand, is much more open. Compared with a Hillary campaign, the support of which would be roughly predictable (her numbers have remained very steady so far throughout), a general election Obama campaign could, in comparison, be a flop, or a resounding hit. Whereas conservatives hate Hillary with a vengeance, Obama has low negatives. His support could deflate, but it could also extend far further into Independent / Moderate territory than Hillary's.

There's lots of reasons why conservative/Republican campaign folks would already want to undermine Obama, needle his image, tear him down already a little.

So yeah, I'm sure there's anti-Obama machinations dribbling from Hillary backers - but thats hardly the only place they're coming from.

Also, of course, the gaping omission in your supposition is that journalists wouldnt have motivations of their own to dig into Obama's (or Giuliani's, or Romney's, or etc) past. Today's commercialised, short-attention-span media thrives on scoops and scandals. Thats the way to get an audience, and thats the way to become famous as a journalist. Uncover ****. Disclose things that politicians tried to hide. Hillary, Edwards and to some extent McCain are less vulnerable to this because, well, they've already gone through the wringer, aint nothing new going to come up. But when it comes to the newcomers, investigative journalists dont actually need any dribblings from either Republican or Hillary campaigers to motivate them to do 'deep detritus' stories about this or that little piece of Obama's past - it's their shot at money, audience, fame.

okie wrote:
The information sort of dribbles out on a regular basis, and if her numbers begin to suffer, they become a bit more severe, and if her numbers look good, they lighten up a bit.

This, I think, is in your imagination. I've been following the polls pretty closely, and Ive seen no such pattern. In fact, Hillary's numbers have remained fairly stable throughout, without any much dropping down or bouncing back up.
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nimh
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:01 am
Thomas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Of the three main contenders, he's the one who's been taking the clearest and most strident stands. He's definitely got the most progressive/liberal/leftwing platform of them. Which is why I like him.

I like him for the other half -- because he takes the clearest and most strident stands.

Oh, I meant that I liked him for both parts!
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Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:08 am
Then we have no conflict to clash over. How boring.
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nimh
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:11 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
he's still the same scumbag that pretended to channel a dead baby for money, so how can you believe him? I should probably stop calling him a scumbag, because that may be considered an unfair insult to bags that are filled with scum.

Thomas wrote:
"Pretended to channel a dead baby for money?" What do you mean by that?


Bill is referring to Edwards' time as trial lawyer. He once handled a famous case where - I'm going on memory here, but it should be easy to Google back up - he was bringing a case against a company about the death of a small child. The child had been in a swimming pool, and had drowned after he had been sucked down by the force of the drain, because the company had not installed the required safety appliances.

Edwards won the case, winning a large sum of compensation for the family, and forcing companies to the hell make sure safety applications better be installed properly henceforth.

Now it was a jury case. You know, the US - instead of having to convince the judge, you have to convince a jury of peers, regular folk. And Edwards won the case by playing the jury dramatically. He went into full theatrical mode. At one point he told them what he thought the child would have said, going into first-person mode to talk to them like the child would have.

Yeah, a far cry from our sense of court reality, for sure. More like what you'd see on TV.

Anyway, once Edwards stood in the '04 elections, the right has played this story over and over again as how "scumbag trial lawyer" Edwards is so totally immoral, he "channeled a dead baby in court".
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Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:24 am
Nothing wrong with that. It's what lawyers do for a living, and the world is better off because of it.
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Lash
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:26 am
%$#%@#$&*#$@%#^*&!!!
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Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:28 am
Evidently Lash just channeled some very wrathful Egyptian deities.
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Lash
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:43 am
Obama: Style or Substance...?
Thought I'd bring this for perusal.
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nimh
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:52 am
Lash wrote:
%$#%@#$&*#$@%#^*&!!!

Was that about being called an honorable member of the liberal club? Razz
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Lash
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:58 am
No. Thomas' lawyer remark.

I embrace my liberalism--and my conservatism.

Hell, I'm making out with myself all constantly.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 12:08 pm

I think we've discussed this point several times. And at least in terms of healthcare, I'm inclined to agree. Unlike Edwards Obama does not seem to understand conceptually why health care is an exception to the rule that the free market always gets it right. As a result, he remains vague about how he would implement single-payer healthcare over the resistance of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. The specifics he suggests are cosmetic patches that won't bring the American system anywhere near the efficiency of Canada or the UK.

On the other hand, as the article also says, it's still early in the campaign. He still has some time to work out his plan.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 12:12 pm
Do you have the book yet, Thomas?

I haven't gotten back to that yet, much simpler if you just have the book.
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Lash
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 12:14 pm
Thomas wrote:

I think we've discussed this point several times. And at least in terms of healthcare, I'm inclined to agree. Unlike Edwards Obama does not seem to understand conceptually why health care is an exception to the rule that the free market always gets it right. As a result, he remains vague about how he would implement single-payer healthcare over the resistance of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. The specifics he suggests are cosmetic patches that won't bring the American system anywhere near the efficiency of Canada or the UK.

On the other hand, as the article also says, it's still early in the campaign. He still has some time to work out his plan.

Are you suggesting no one brings articles on the subject, then?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 01:09 pm
You're confusing this case with another one, Nimh... but not bad for memory. Here's a quick excerpt of what he actually did:

Quote:
This still gives me chills. From New York Times, Jan. 31, 2004: "In 1985, a 31-year-old North Carolina lawyer named John Edwards stood before a jury and channeled the words of an unborn baby girl. Referring to an hour-by-hour record of a fetal heartbeat monitor, he told the jury: She said at 3 o'clock, `I'm fine.' She said at 4, `I'm having a little trouble, but I'm doing OK.' At 5, she said, `I'm having problems.' At 5:30, she said, `I need out.' "

But obstetrician waited 90 more minutes to perform breech delivery, rather than immediately doing Caesarean section. This delay, Edwards argued, permanently damaged girl's brain. In closing to jury, he said: "She speaks to you through me. And I have to tell you right now -- I didn't plan to talk about this -- right now I feel her. I feel her presence. She's inside me, and she's talking to you."

Jury came back with $6.5 million verdict.

That, my friends, is the work of a scumbag. Brilliant work? Yep. But a scumbag nonetheless.
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Lash
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 01:52 pm
That is DISGUSTING!
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Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 02:56 pm
sozobe wrote:
Do you have the book yet, Thomas?

I haven't gotten back to that yet, much simpler if you just have the book.

Evil or Very Mad I do have the book -- technically. The week before last week, I was on vacation at my parents' home. I had the second copy (the first got lost somehow) delivered there so I could read it without distraction. The book did arrive at my parents' house one day after I left. Rolling Eyes At least now I know I will get to read it over Easter.

Actually my comment about healthcare was about both the book excerpt you quoted and the "issues" page on his website. So while the book will help me answer Paul Krugman's other two questions, my impression on Obama's healthcare position is that he hasn't really thought the problem through yet.
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okie
 
  1  
Wed 28 Mar, 2007 03:05 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
You're confusing this case with another one, Nimh... but not bad for memory. Here's a quick excerpt of what he actually did:

Quote:
This still gives me chills. From New York Times, Jan. 31, 2004: "In 1985, a 31-year-old North Carolina lawyer named John Edwards stood before a jury and channeled the words of an unborn baby girl. Referring to an hour-by-hour record of a fetal heartbeat monitor, he told the jury: She said at 3 o'clock, `I'm fine.' She said at 4, `I'm having a little trouble, but I'm doing OK.' At 5, she said, `I'm having problems.' At 5:30, she said, `I need out.' "

But obstetrician waited 90 more minutes to perform breech delivery, rather than immediately doing Caesarean section. This delay, Edwards argued, permanently damaged girl's brain. In closing to jury, he said: "She speaks to you through me. And I have to tell you right now -- I didn't plan to talk about this -- right now I feel her. I feel her presence. She's inside me, and she's talking to you."

Jury came back with $6.5 million verdict.

That, my friends, is the work of a scumbag. Brilliant work? Yep. But a scumbag nonetheless.


Does he also claim to speak for those about to be aborted? Just wondering?
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