okie
 
  -2  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 10:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You oppose single-payer on ideological grounds, because there is no good logical argument against it whatsoever. Cycloptichorn

Except a little thing called Personal liberty, which our country was incidentally founded upon, whether you care or not, which I doubt you do. You would have supported Stalin in his day, apparently, cyclops.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 11:01 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You oppose single-payer on ideological grounds, because there is no good logical argument against it whatsoever. Cycloptichorn

Except a little thing called Personal liberty, which our country was incidentally founded upon, whether you care or not, which I doubt you do. You would have supported Stalin in his day, apparently, cyclops.


Single-payer health care has nothing to do with Personal Liberty at all, Okie. You're just spouting right-wing rhetoric that you don't even understand; or perhaps you can explain exactly how having cheap health care for everyone in the country is a violation of your or anyone's personal liberty?

You constantly retreat into ideological arguments, because you have no solutions-based or evidence-based ones to put forth. I never see you arguing with numbers or facts.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -2  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 11:03 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Then to be consistent, how about single payer housing? Just want you to be consistent. After all, nobody deserves to sleep under bridges, do they?

And face it, I bring up idealogy, because all of this is based upon idealogy. Admit it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 11:08 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Then to be consistent, how about single payer housing? Just want you to be consistent. After all, nobody deserves to sleep under bridges, do they?


I support the government providing low-cost or assisted housing to the homeless, yes. It doesn't have to be nice or even comfortable; but it would solve more problems than it costs.

Quote:
And face it, I bring up idealogy, because all of this is based upon idealogy. Admit it.


You bring it up constantly because you can't articulate logical arguments for what you want. You feel something should be true, so you seek to use ideology to prove that. This is logically fallacious of you.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 11:16 am
@Cycloptichorn,
How about decent transportation, should the government provide every citizen a car, or at least provide a way for them to have it cheaply? And food, should everyone have a monthly allowance for the basics?
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 11:34 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

How about decent transportation, should the government provide every citizen a car, or at least provide a way for them to have it cheaply?


This already exists - it's called the Bus. No further action is needed by anyone.

Quote:
And food, should everyone have a monthly allowance for the basics?


This already exists; they are called Food Stamps or WIC programs. Our government does this, because people who are starving don't just sit there and die, Okie; they use force to take YOUR food. Which I'm sure you understand causes problems for everyone.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm talking about taking things a step further, cyclops, making them a federal issue and single payer. For example, all the necessities of basic living, housing, transportation, food, and clothing, and all the expenses surrounding those things, including insurance, such as insurance on your car, housing, etc.

I am simply trying to get you to think consistently, that if a policy is wise for one basic thing of life like health care, why not at least as much for food, housing, transportation, and clothing? I think you know where I am going, why not to each according to his need, to each according to their ability, as determined by the federal government? I think that is the goal of Obamacare in regard to peoples medical care.

About the bus and food stamps, why should some people be restricted to those things, why shouldn't they have transportation and food equal to what everyone else enjoys?
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:23 pm
@okie,
Quote:

I am simply trying to get you to think consistently, that if a policy is wise for one basic thing of life like health care, why not at least as much for food, housing, transportation, and clothing?


Why not? Because, as I've explained to you before, Appealing to Extremes is a poor form of argumentation.

I would no more recommend a purely Socialist economic system than I would a purely Capitalist one. I have consistently stated that the strongest system will include elements of both.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -2  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:29 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You are always using your pet phrase, appealing to extremes, but what I am doing is trying to bring you back to the foundation of an issue, the reasoning behind it.

When you claim to want something in between purely socialist and purely capitalist, I hope you do realize you are basically advocating a form of fascism, cyclops? In fact, Mussolini's fascism was referred to as the "Third Way," a hybrid form of government that supposedly borrowed the best aspects of capitalism and combined them with socialism, and Hitler's vision of Nazism was quite similar. And most importantly, such a system also usurps the freedom of the people as individuals and instead employs a very strong state to oversee all of it.

And I am not appealing to extremes, I am simply stating facts.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:35 pm
While I dont have time right now to look into this further (I have to leave for work), I found this this afternoon...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/28/AR2010072806141.html?hpid=topnews

Quote:
The Obama administration is seeking to make it easier for the FBI to compel companies to turn over records of an individual's Internet activity without a court order if agents deem the information relevant to a terrorism or intelligence investigation.

The administration wants to add just four words -- "electronic communication transactional records" -- to a list of items that the law says the FBI may demand without a judge's approval. Government lawyers say this category of information includes the addresses to which an Internet user sends e-mail; the times and dates e-mail was sent and received; and possibly a user's browser history. It does not include, the lawyers hasten to point out, the "content" of e-mail or other Internet communication.



snip


Quote:
To critics, the move is another example of an administration retreating from campaign pledges to enhance civil liberties in relation to national security. The proposal is "incredibly bold, given the amount of electronic data the government is already getting," said Michelle Richardson, American Civil Liberties Union legislative counsel.


The critics say its effect would be to greatly expand the amount and type of personal data the government can obtain without a court order. "You're bringing a big category of data -- records reflecting who someone is communicating with in the digital world, Web browsing history and potentially location information -- outside of judicial review," said Michael Sussmann, a Justice Department lawyer under President Bill Clinton who now represents Internet and other firms.



snip

Quote:
The use of the national security letters to obtain personal data on Americans has prompted concern. The Justice Department issued 192,500 national security letters from 2003 to 2006, according to a 2008 inspector general report, which did not indicate how many were demands for Internet records. A 2007 IG report found numerous possible violations of FBI regulations, including the issuance of NSLs without having an approved investigation to justify the request. In two cases, the report found, agents used NSLs to request content information "not permitted by the [surveillance] statute."


So now this admin seems to want to be able to snoop WITHOUT a warrant signed by a judge.
Didnt Obama and the left campaign against this sort of thing when Bush was doing it?
Why are they going back on their own statements now?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:35 pm
@okie,
Quote:
When you claim to want something in between purely socialist and purely capitalist, I hope you do realize you are basically advocating a form of fascism, cyclops?


Rolling Eyes it's **** like this which is so ridiculous, Okie, and shows that you don't understand what Fascism means. You just use it to mean whatever you want.

Our current system is already a mix of Capitalist and Socialist policies. Do you believe America is a Fascist state? That would be ridiculous, but it seems to be what you are positing here.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I support the government providing low-cost or assisted housing to the homeless, yes. It doesn't have to be nice or even comfortable; but it would solve more problems than it costs.


Yeah--well--supporting the government is easy. What does it do for the homeless? Have you offered any the use of your spare room? Given them your coat. Your desire to be thought so compassionate is actually providing the other side with a platform. And if okie is right and you are nurturing the Fascist state where is your compassion then? It could look like something just for parading around with. And what about the compassion for the homeless in other countries. If it's reserved for Americans some would say you're a racist.

Are you in the Salvation Army? There's a few bonny chicks in the Sally Army. And not a few tough broilers.

And wouldn't these cheap houses which you admit, a neat trim I must say, needn't be "nice or even comfortable" be subject to the facts of deciding where they were to be located and them turn into another Soweto. Everybody knows the sort of people who would be inhabiting the districts. Even if you built just one cheap, horrible uncomfortable house for the needy in every suburban street it would lower the tone of the neighbourhood.

Actually, coming to think about it, that might be the solution. Thin them out. And think of the charity they would receive if the neighbourhood had a choice of raising them up to acceptable standards or their property dropping $50,000 apiece.

Quote:
You feel something should be true, so you seek to use ideology to prove that. This is logically fallacious of you.


It isn't at all. Not everybody, as you seem to think, is running the ideology past us with nothing but an eye on the main chance. A few do feel it first. Then the ideology they express is just an image or an expression of that feeling. They are, of course, the dangerous ones. That's why power corrupts. If the feeling is strong enough it lends itself to learning to create the image and expressing it persuasivly and when these characteristics combine in a sort of chemical reaction, which is all that the materialists can make of it, in a cauldron, it can lead to power. And if the will to power is as all embracing as some philosophers say, materialists, it overwhelms the feeling, which is being eroded all the time anyway on the way up. In other words, if the materialists are right, it is a natural chemico/physico response of man the machine and only a martyr stands in the way of that being a scientific fact.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:44 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Even if you built just one cheap, horrible uncomfortable house for the needy in every suburban street it would lower the tone of the neighbourhood.


They already live in the neighborhood - on the streets. How is it worse to put them in housing?

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Not ridiculous at all, I think it is proper for all of us, including you, to consider the foundational principles of how we govern ourselves, because it is basic and it is extremely important.

If my definition of Fascism is not correct in your view, feel free to state your definition.

Yes, I agree we already have some socialistic policies, and I think Social Security and Medicare are prime examples. I think Fascism would be alot more encompassing than simply having a small minority of our system socialized, I think instead Fascism involves a strong state dictating not only the socialistic parts of the system but also dictating alot more of the capitalistic segments of our system, which is in fact what Obama is attempting to do with the auto industry, the private parts of the medical industry, also banking and insurance, etc. So, I would not call us Fascist now, but we could become more Fascist if the trend continues, yes.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:46 pm
@okie,
Do you believe that all regulation of private industry is Fascist in nature, Okie? Or just the regulations that you don't like.

When you say that Obama is trying to have the gov't dictate 'the auto industry,' how do you support this comment? With what evidence?

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
No, a stupid question, obviously I do not believe all regulation is Fascist in nature. I think it depends upon the intensity or extent of regulation.

What evidence about the auto industry? Doesn't the government now run or own General Motors?
plainoldme
 
  1  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I read an article today that explained how America has shifted to the right, which has to mean toward fascism.
spendius
 
  0  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
They already live in the neighborhood - on the streets. How is it worse to put them in housing?


I didn't say it was. I'm trying to explain to you that you can't just say put them in cheap housing and not say how to do it. How would you do it?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 12:55 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

No, a stupid question, obviously I do not believe all regulation is Fascist in nature. I think it depends upon the intensity or extent of regulation.


At what point does regulation of industry become Fascist in nature? You are accusing Obama of attempting to reach this point in several industries with the regulations; which ones are fascist, and which ones are just ones you don't like?

Quote:
What evidence about the auto industry? Doesn't the government now run or own General Motors?


The US has a majority stake in them, yes; but they certainly don't run the thing, and when GM can get the cash reserves up high enough, they will buy the company back from the gov't. And this isn't the first time we've done this for an auto company, either...

Does this constitute Fascism? Only if you have no idea what the word means.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -2  
Thu 29 Jul, 2010 01:31 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

I read an article today that explained how America has shifted to the right, which has to mean toward fascism.

Perhaps toward Fascism, but that is to the left, not the right. You need to get that straight in your head. Fascism is not right or conservative, it is clearly liberal and leftist. Obama is a liberal, not a conservative, pom.
 

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