Obama '08?

@maporsche,

You're jumping to conclusions not evidenced from the report. If you let your own imagination run away to think anything, there is no hope for our legal system to work.

Foxie, "Over reacted" is not cause for an arrest.

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@cicerone imposter,

I'm just saying that if I'm a cop, and there's a crowd, and I have a guy calling me a racist, complaining about how blacks in America are treated, insulting my mother, etc. I don't know that I wouldn't have done the same thing.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Foxie, "Over reacted" is not cause for an arrest.

It's not cause for conviction.

It sure did end the altercation though didn't it?

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

There are few among us who I believe are able to look at things objectively.

To do that one might begin with why the nerves of the parties had become as frazzled as seems to be the case. Modern life can be a bit trying at times.

I can't see the cop having anything to gain from the event but the prof might have been looking to be better known and knew that being a political football was a tried and tested way of going about it.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

Actually I have said that I don't know whether the police overreacted.

Escalating in the attempt to gain dominance and thus control over a situation that threatens to become a public safety or a police safety situation is a normal and necessary police tactic. What is beyond doubt is that it did not work in this case, Gates was not about to back down under any circumstances, as he has quite a chip on his shoulder. I don't fault the cop for not knowing his attacker well enough to know that escalation would not work. He was doing his job as best he could, as we need to support him, because he is doing his job for us.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Your use of the word "attacker" shows you have again resorted to words not in the police report.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Your use of the word "attacker" shows you have again resorted to words not in the police report

had Gates used that tone with his wife he would have been arrested for domestic assault, the cop deserves no less consideration from us.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Your use of the word "attacker" shows you have again resorted to words not in the police report

had Gates used that tone with his wife he would have been arrested for domestic assault, the cop deserves no less consideration from us.

wrong

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Quote:

Like Shane, there are plenty of cops and ex-cops who think Gates' behavior didn't warrant the disorderly conduct charge, and there are those, like Nolan, who feel it did.

"Police pride themselves on resolving issues, and 99% of the time it occurs without arrests happening," says Nolan. "You are not going to win any accolades bringing in anyone for a street disturbance. It's a waste of time because in order to bring this situation to a conclusion, you've got hours of paperwork ahead of you."

"You do it because you have no other tool at your disposal," he says of disorderly conduct. "There really isn't any other choice."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090725/us_time/08599191277700

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye, How many times will the police hear about a husband speaking to their wives that way? Even if they do, what do you think they are able to do about it? Speaking is not against the law.

BTW, are you aware of how many verbal spats couples have every minute in this country? There aren't enough police to respond or do anything about it if that's considered "breaking the law" in your mind.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Is that so ci? I thought American domesticity was little short of blissful. But I must admit I only had the movies I saw when young to go on.

Seven Brides for Seven Brothers was idyllic I thought. DIY and crumpet. It's a fine alchemical mixture to boil up in the cauldron.

Did it all go wrong?

1 Reply

@spendius,

Dys is correct, for while the police in MASS. by state law must arrest everyone suspected of domestic abuse, and verbal abuse applies, the abuser must threaten physical contact.

I am not sure that it has been linked in this thread, so here is the police report:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Foxie, "Over reacted" is not cause for an arrest.

It's not cause for conviction.

It sure did end the altercation though didn't it?

And it could cost the city tens or hundreds of thousands in legal fees and settlements.

As DebraLaw already posted in a ruling in MA courts, that isn't a reason to arrest. Arresting without valid legal cause under the law leads to lawsuits that the city can't win.

1 Reply

@parados,

Quote:

And it could cost the city tens or hundreds of thousands in legal fees and settlements.

given that the chief of police has already said that this cop was fully justified in making the arrest I doubt that the city would roll over here. Gates is free to attempt to prove that this was a case of contempt of cop, but given the facts as we know them his case is no stronger than the disorderly conduct charge was. This may be why Gates has already said that he will not file a lawsuit.

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@hawkeye10,

He has said he won't sue but his case would be rather strong.

Is your porch a public place when it is clearly located on your property? Do you really think you can convince a jury of 12 citizens that it is a public place? If it is NOT a public place then the arrest was not valid under the statute.

That leaves the city with arguing
1. They didn't train the officer well enough in that he overreacted. (They lose)
2. The officer acted outside the law in his official capacity and the city is still responsible. (They lose)
3. The officer felt physically threatened and needed to end the confrontation but failed to put that in his report. (A hard one to argue considering the age of the officer and the person arrested. They probably still lose.)

Closing summation.
If you answer yes to these two questions then the arrest was not valid and you must award for the person arrested.
1. Was the porch private property?
2. Does the statute require it be public property for an arrest to be made.

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@hawkeye10,

They don't have to "roll over." A suit in a court of law with the current laws will win the lawsuit, and they would lose.

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@parados,

the cop gave as his reason that a crowd had formed on the street 20-30 feet away (my guess from looking at photos of the house) and that Gate's behaviour was agitating them. He also gave a valid reason (not being able to conduct his radio contact) for not wanting to be inside. Gates could argue that since by the time of the outside altercation the cop did have back-up on scene, thus did not need radio contact because he back-up could maintain radio contact, that any problem could have been resolved inside. However, I am not one to second guess cops who are working in a difficult environment but who none the less successfully defuse potentially dangerous situations, and I don't think that most judges are either. Gates would not have a cake walk through the court process.

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@hawkeye10,

A crowd forming doesn't justify any arrest. If any member of the crowd starts a riot, that person should be arrested, not Professor Gates.

Your trying to justify anything not related to the issue of why the call was made is outside the issues being discussed.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

A crowd forming doesn't justify any arrest. If any member of the crowd starts a riot, that person should be arrested, not Professor Gates

the proof that America does not agree with you is American Hate Speech Law. Agitation for racial violence is a crime. It could be argued that this is what Gates was doing. I don't support hate crime law, but I do support the cops using the laws as they are (even bad laws) to do their job as best they can. Some have argued that the public disturbance law is a bad (out of date) law that needs to be replaced, which may well be, but this cop would still be justified in using this law when possible to make good things happen on the street. Cops do not decide the law, cops maintain law and order as best they can with the tools that the collective puts into their tool bag.

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@cicerone imposter,

So, it would be legal for me to stand on my porch and incite a riot from my porch?

What about on the internet. Can I, with my free speech, and from my home, incite other people to riot?

1 Reply

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