Obama '08?

sozobe wrote:

Foxfyre, it goes both ways.

You can question Obama, or what we think about Obama.

We can question your questions.

The more substance and specifics, the better.

This is the kind of give and take that I enjoy, too, Soz. I just wish there was more of it instead of so many ad hominem references. But as I told Thomas, it's all good.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
My only quarrel is the assumption that anything other than cheerleading such as discussing any potential problems or concerns or negatives is portrayed as 'bashing' or 'creating doubt' or 'casting aspersions' or some other misplaced assumption.

It would be a legitimate quarrel if that's what the Obama supporters in this thread did -- but it isn't. For what it's worth, Phoenix and I have both expressed a good deal of skepticism about Obama's program. None of the others reacted to this by accusing us of creating doubt or casting aspirations.

Yes but you and Phoenix are not as polarizing a figure as I am. Both of you hold more liberal views on several issues than I do and this make you more 'socially acceptable" to those farther on the Left. I can sometimes draw a whole bevy of trolls and spammers just by posting "Hello" on a thread. Towit, I can't talk like I talk without Snood (or others) complaining about how I talk. It's okay though. I get the point. And it's all good.

What a pile of horsesh*t.

The ratio of criticism towards you, Fox, is 10 - 1 in favor of your incredibly poor logic, not your 'socially unacceptable' viewpoints.

Cycloptichorn

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I have to agree with Cycloptichorn there. When we get down to the nitty-gritty I often find something to agree with, Foxfyre, but there are so many layers of generalizations and buzzwords and illogic that the nitty-gritty is often elusive.

Sorry.

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sozobe wrote:

I have to agree with Cycloptichorn there. When we get down to the nitty-gritty I often find something to agree with, Foxfyre, but there are so many layers of generalizations and buzzwords and illogic that the nitty-gritty is often elusive.

Sorry.

Perhaps you can point out a generalization that doesn't make sense on this thread? Or a buzzword that isn't used strictly in an innocuous manner? Or anything illogical I've said? But I've already agreed that I probably don't have anything to contribute here of interest to Obama supporters and you guys can get back to whatever you consider to be more appropriate.

As far as agreeing with Cyclop, that does surprise me, but I accept it as your opinion.

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The Chicago Cipher

from the Power Grid at New York Mag this week

Quote:

~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:

The excitement he's generated isn't issue-based: It's stylistic. His popularity is rooted in his calm, consensus-seeking, deliberative demeanor and in his calls to common purpose. The question, however, is how well this brand of popularity will hold up when voters learn more about him

Quote:

No one, obviously, can know for sure about that, just as no one can say with any certainty what 2008 holds for Obama. But, win or lose, Obama's prospective candidacy has already changed the game. He's already tested Hillary Clinton, and is making the rest of the field redefine themselves. But the bigger test will be for himself.

interesting stuff in between the snips as well

Power Grid archives

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For anyone wishing to learn more about Obama on various issues, here's a great website:

The substance is there. There's a lot more to him than charisma if you're willing to do some reading.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm

Quotes, background and voting record on:

Abortion
Budget and Economy
Civil Rights
Corporations
Crime
Drugs
Education
Energy and Oil
Environment
Families and Children
Foreign Policy
Free Trade
Government Reform
Gun Control
Health Care
Homeland Security
Immigration
Jobs
Principles and Values
Social Security
Tax Reform
Technology
War and Peace
Welfare and Poverty

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Yeah, but who'd want to cloud the real issues - that Obama is all fluff and pretty face so far, and no one knows what he thinks - with facts like his views on issues?

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During the Jan. 1 broadcast of Wolf Blitzer's nightly news program, a pre-commercial preview of the show's next segment included a story on the hunt for Al Qaeda's leadership. Over a photo of Osama Bin Laden and his second-in-command Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Blitzer stated, according to the transcript, "Plus, a new year, but the same mission. Will 2007 bring any new changes in the hunt for Osama bin Laden?"

But instead of asking "Where's Osama?" the graphic over the two Islamists read "Where's Obama?" referencing the surname of popular Illinois Democratic Senator Barack Obama.

http://www.rawstory.com/images/new/obamaosama.jpg

NO, I don't think this is the result of shady operatives or a deep conspiracy. I just thought it was funny and sorta eerie, given the discussion of late...

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/CNN_comments_on_Obama_gaffe_in_0101.html

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Probably the work of some exhausted graphic artist intern too mesmerized by Osama's charisma to bother verifying his name. :wink:

I'll bet the copy was being read by a drooling blonde anchor too. :wink: :wink:

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Butrflynet wrote:

For anyone wishing to learn more about Obama on various issues, here's a great website:....
....

He is very strongly liberal and votes that way. Big surprise.
He voted against Roberts and Alito. That says alot about lots of things.

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okie wrote:

Butrflynet wrote:
For anyone wishing to learn more about Obama on various issues, here's a great website:....
....

He is very strongly liberal and votes that way. Big surprise.
He voted against Roberts and Alito. That says alot about lots of things.

Not only that, there are rumors afloat that he may be left-handed.

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Very funny, dys. I hope you didn't try a career of being a comedian. Or maybe thats why you ended up in Wolf Hole?

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okie wrote:

Butrflynet wrote:
For anyone wishing to learn more about Obama on various issues, here's a great website:....
....

He is very strongly liberal and votes that way. Big surprise.
He voted against Roberts and Alito. That says alot about lots of things.

It says a lot to a mental midget. Didn't Lieberman vote no on those two as well?

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Today's Washington Post has Obama on the frontpage again ...

Effect of Obama's Candor Remains to Be Seen (he admitted trying cocaine in a written memory 11 years ago)

... in an opinion ...

The Audacity of Nope

... ...

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Butrflynet wrote:

For anyone wishing to learn more about Obama on various issues, here's a great website:

The substance is there. There's a lot more to him than charisma if you're willing to do some reading.

There is indeed. Thanks, Butrflynet, for posting this link.

As I expected, I largely agree with Obama about civil rights, but largely disagree with him about economic, labor, and environmental regulations. Where the two areas conflict, I disagree with him (for example, he "strongly favors `require companies to hire women and minorities'", whereas I disagree with it; I believe in freedom of contract in this matter).

So far I see two notable exceptions to this rule. (1) I agree with Obama that the Bush tax cuts aren't doing much good for the economy in general and for the middle class in particular. They shouldn't be made permanent; indeed, they ought to be reversed, and then some. (2) In terms of civil rights, Obama lost points with me for his position on gay marriage: "Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality. (Oct 2006). Marriage not a human right; non-discrimination is. (Oct 2004)" To be clear, the parts I object to are "opposes gay marriage" and "marriage not a human right".

snood wrote:

Yeah, but who'd want to cloud the real issues - that Obama is all fluff and pretty face so far, and no one knows what he thinks - with facts like his views on issues?

Snood, what do you think of Obama's views on the issues listed in Buttrflynet's link?

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Quote:

As I expected, I largely agree with Obama about civil rights, but largely disagree with him about economic, labor, and environmental regulations. Where the two areas conflict, I disagree with him (for example, he "strongly favors `require companies to hire women and minorities'", while I believe in freedom of contract).

In the Libertarian version of Woodstock, the opening act has Richie Havens launching the audience of drunk business adminstration students to their feet with a chorus of "Greedom, Greedom....Greedom, Greedom"

Happy new year, thomas.

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blatham wrote:

In the Libertarian version of Woodstock, the opening act has Richie Havens launching the audience of drunk business adminstration students to their feet with a chorus of "Greedom, Greedom....Greedom, Greedom"

I like the historical version of Woodstock just fine -- as you well know. As a libertarian, I especially adore Jimi Hendrix's originalist interpretation of "the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air ...". His interpretation ought to be required listening for every liberty-loving American. I'm sure it will survive every baseball stadium the Star Sprangled Banner is currently played in. Indeed, I hereby plead that I will never attend a naturalization ceremony that doesn't play the American anthem in its Jimi Hendrix version.

Blatham wrote:

Happy new year, thomas.

Same to you, Bernie.

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HILLARY GEARING UP

Hillary Clinton is poised to make her run for the highest office in the land and is sizing up the competition. She thinks Obamamania is going to pass and she actually views the ambulance-chasing John Edwards as a threat. Very interesting....we're only 22 months or so from finding out who will take over the Oval Office next. When you consider that the nomination will be locked up by Super Tuesday next March, we're only a year from finding out who will take on John McCain, or Rudy Giuliani or Mitt Romney or whoever. There's not much time.

So who will The Hildabeast be facing in the primary? Probably no one. Barack Obama is going to fade...most likely because he will have peaked too soon and because he hasn't done anything the least bit noteworthy as yet in his short political career. Aside from the fact that the media is treating his potential candidacy like the Second Coming, there's not much to it. Just tell me one issue that Obama has championed? What issues is he known for? Oh, and then the revelation that he did cocaine while in college...that isn't going to help either. It shows a weak personality. So it's Bye-Bye-Barack. Enjoy your 15 minutes.

What of John Edwards? His candidacy is going nowhere. He wasn't electable when he ran with The Poodle and he isn't now. But he's got a lot of money and connections, so he'll hang around long enough to give Hillary a workout on C-SPAN in a few debates. But really, Edwards is in the same boat as Obama. He doesn't have much of a record either -- except his record as a rather successful plaintiff's attorney. Remember .. this is the guy who said that cripples would walk if the voters would just make John Kerry our president.

So far it looks like smooth sailing for Hillary Clinton. The next year is going to be interesting. On top of that, you have Nancy Pelosi swinging the Speaker's gavel down at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue. What fun!

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Thomas wrote:

blatham wrote:
In the Libertarian version of Woodstock, the opening act has Richie Havens launching the audience of drunk business adminstration students to their feet with a chorus of "Greedom, Greedom....Greedom, Greedom"

I like the historical version of Woodstock just fine -- as you well know. As a libertarian, I especially adore Jimi Hendrix's originalist interpretation of "the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air ...". His interpretation ought to be required listening for every liberty-loving American. I'm sure it will survive every baseball stadium the Star Sprangled Banner is currently played in. Indeed, I hereby plead that I will never attend a naturalization ceremony that doesn't play the American anthem in its Jimi Hendrix version.

Blatham wrote:
Happy new year, thomas.

Same to you, Bernie.

Yes, we do share this notion of musical genius in his version. Perhaps, then as now, it takes America starting a war for Americans to realize that America starts wars.

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Thomas, you asked snood and not me, but do you mind if I reply?

I don't like the gay marriage stance. I think I'd be happier if he changed it, and maybe he will.

However, a mitigating factor for me is the electability issue. As I've said, I probably agree with Russ Feingold more thoroughly and consistently than Obama -- but I don't think Feingold could be elected President of the United States. So there is some triangulation involved, wanting to support a candidate who is the best combination of holding positions I agree with and electability. Probably anyone I agree with down the line would be considered too far left to be elected.

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