Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 10:31 am
okie wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Hitler - most certainly.

Nixon - not sure.


How come they didn't then?


Well, I could copy/paste some summaries from books, add a few pages from own ideas (as a historian) - but I suppose in that case I better publish that myself.

An idea would be, ojie, you just read a bit online yourself - those short chapters on wikipedia should do.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 10:37 am
I guess you missed the point, Walter. The point is, in Hitler's case, it could have been predicted, possibly, with 20/20 hindsight, however, the people that voted him in apparently did not predict it, did they? So for the people that counted, the voters, they either could not predict it or failed to think that it was predictable based on what they believed at the time.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 10:37 am
I've an opinion on this, of course, but I don't think neither my opinion nor why Germans elected Hitler in office has anything to do with the topic here.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 10:46 am
Walter, I think I might have mis-interpreted your post. I think we might be in agreement on Hitler that what he did to the extent that he did it was not easily predicted by enough people, because most voters vote on a shallow basis of thought. I think Finn's point was simply let us be careful to not vote for someone based on charisma alone. Very few people really know what Obama's political beliefs are. Snood thinks he does, as do others here, but the vast majority of people caught up in the Obama phenomena do not, and are simply mesmerized by his star status, which may continue to rise or at some point fizzle.

Bringing Hitler into this discussion is inappropriate of course, except to point out the pitfalls of charisma.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 11:05 am
While I do not think Obama resembles or is comparable in ANY way to Hitler, the issue of charisma is valid. Apparently Hitler had sufficient charisma to persuade the people to ignore the negatives that were available to see.

Is pure charisma enough to lure the voters to cast sufficient ballots to ensure a successful outcome on election day? In Hitler's case, it was.

Now there is nothing really sinister in anything Obama has written or said and it all sounds really good especially if you tilt Left. I would expect that prospects of politics without the enmity and rancorousness that currently exist is appealing to just about everybody.

But what about substance? Promising sweetness and light and cooperation and good will and hope and opportunity is all wonderful to say, but without anything substantive in HOW it can be accomplished, it all can go sour quickly after the inaugeration. I point to Jimmy Carter as a shining example of that. I point to George Bush as another. In the case of Ross Perot and John Kerry, it happened even before the election.

Unless Obama can convince America that his wonderful words will have substance to back them up, he will have trouble winning the nomination and/or winning the general election.

Unless, of course, a pretty face and charisma are enough.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 11:11 am
Foxfyre wrote:


But what about substance? Promising sweetness and light and cooperation and good will and hope and opportunity is all wonderful to say, but without anything substantive in HOW it can be accomplished, it all can go sour quickly after the inaugeration.

I thought this thread was about Obama, not George W Bush.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 11:30 am
Foxfyre wrote:
While I do not think Obama resembles or is comparable in ANY way to Hitler, the issue of charisma is valid. Apparently Hitler had sufficient charisma to persuade the people to ignore the negatives that were available to see.

Is pure charisma enough to lure the voters to cast sufficient ballots to ensure a successful outcome on election day? In Hitler's case, it was.

Now there is nothing really sinister in anything Obama has written or said and it all sounds really good especially if you tilt Left. I would expect that prospects of politics without the enmity and rancorousness that currently exist is appealing to just about everybody.

But what about substance? Promising sweetness and light and cooperation and good will and hope and opportunity is all wonderful to say, but without anything substantive in HOW it can be accomplished, it all can go sour quickly after the inaugeration. I point to Jimmy Carter as a shining example of that. I point to George Bush as another. In the case of Ross Perot and John Kerry, it happened even before the election.

Unless Obama can convince America that his wonderful words will have substance to back them up, he will have trouble winning the nomination and/or winning the general election.

Unless, of course, a pretty face and charisma are enough.


What, of his policies or beliefs, have you read?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 11:36 am
A quick fairness to foxfyre here...her reference to Bush wasn't positive.

On the other hand, the direction of her criticism of Obama reflects the trend/talking point in rightwing PR as it gears up to find some avenues of attack. That direction of criticism isn't inappropriate. But we'll see whether she and others have an emotional or philosophical ability to stretch past it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 11:53 am
snood wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
While I do not think Obama resembles or is comparable in ANY way to Hitler, the issue of charisma is valid. Apparently Hitler had sufficient charisma to persuade the people to ignore the negatives that were available to see.

Is pure charisma enough to lure the voters to cast sufficient ballots to ensure a successful outcome on election day? In Hitler's case, it was.

Now there is nothing really sinister in anything Obama has written or said and it all sounds really good especially if you tilt Left. I would expect that prospects of politics without the enmity and rancorousness that currently exist is appealing to just about everybody.

But what about substance? Promising sweetness and light and cooperation and good will and hope and opportunity is all wonderful to say, but without anything substantive in HOW it can be accomplished, it all can go sour quickly after the inaugeration. I point to Jimmy Carter as a shining example of that. I point to George Bush as another. In the case of Ross Perot and John Kerry, it happened even before the election.

Unless Obama can convince America that his wonderful words will have substance to back them up, he will have trouble winning the nomination and/or winning the general election.

Unless, of course, a pretty face and charisma are enough.


What, of his policies or beliefs, have you read?


I've read excerpts of his book and I have listened to a couple of his speeches and I've read a lot of what analysts that I respect have said about him. (Most have been more positive than negative.) I really do like the guy. But in all honesty, sounding good and convincing me (or others) of ability to deliver are separate things. Right now he is benefitting from that pretty face, eloquence, a pleasant vision for America, and the fact that no serious negatives have surfaced other than one shaky land deal that nobody is going to care about.

At some point he is going to have to explain how the vision will be implemented, however, and that's when he will or won't convince the skeptics that he is the real deal.

But given the fickleness of politics these days, it may be that he can be elected just because he is the most likable/personally attractive candidate.

And then we'll just have to hope and hope that he is the real deal because we won't know how he'll govern until he does.

(If the worst his opponents can say about him is that he is inexperienced, though, he'll be the next President of the United States. The GOP won't be able to find anybody that squeaky clean. Smile)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 12:06 pm
Charism per se isn't bad at all, I think.

http://i10.tinypic.com/40p7lzd.jpg
source: BBC: "A step-by-step guide to charisma"

But charisma also has a bad side .... like the Hitler et al used.
They knew how to win their people over, how to approach the individual, how to jumb on the populistic waggon ... .
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 12:13 pm
I just can't get past how incredulous Foxfyre seems about how far Obama gets on charm.

After all, Bush's biggest selling point, as I remember it, was his "likability".
Was she as diligent in cautioning about buying a pig in a poke, back then?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:01 pm
I think to sum up what some of us are saying is, lets just slow down a bit concerning Obama, because most of the current rise in popularity is not fueled by real substance or track record. I haven't figured it out, because his speech at the DNC did not particularly impress me, and that seems to be the thing that launched him. Go figure. I was far more impressed with Michael Steele at the RNC, and he could not pull off a victory in his most recent race for Senate. To me, he was more real, more substantive, and a known quantity.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:02 pm
snood wrote:
I just can't get past how incredulous Foxfyre seems about how far Obama gets on charm.

After all, Bush's biggest selling point, as I remember it, was his "likability".
Was she as diligent in cautioning about buying a pig in a poke, back then?
No. I think you're thinking of John Kerry's "unlikability". As in most categories; Bush is mediocre. Kerry lowered the bar. :wink:
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:05 pm
Oh, and the Hitler comparison is flat out ridiculous. Charismatic people are sometimes good and sometimes bad. Rolling Eyes In other news, water is wet... and I wonder if Hitler was a good swimmer?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:06 pm
This early in the election season, I would seriously question the motives and open mindedness of any candidate who pronounces his/her detailed methods for implementing their vision.

There are very few candidates who don't start out with an abundance of charisma. That's what the world of politics is all about. We then build/confirm our knowledge bank of their history and leadership skills as the campaign progresses.

When it comes right down to it, Obama hasn't even announced he is a candidate yet.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:06 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
snood wrote:
I just can't get past how incredulous Foxfyre seems about how far Obama gets on charm.

After all, Bush's biggest selling point, as I remember it, was his "likability".
Was she as diligent in cautioning about buying a pig in a poke, back then?
No. I think you're thinking of John Kerry's "unlikability". As in most categories; Bush is mediocre. Kerry lowered the bar. :wink:


You're reaching here, Bill. It makes for a bad argument.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:15 pm
Simply as a matter of odd coincidence, we have a restaurant chain in Canada which features a mascot/logo remarkably similar to bill's avatar. The chain is named Chumpy Cheddar. If you get lucky enough to drive into one, do not leave without ordering the Messy Meal (copyright) which comes with Coagulant Bouillion Burger, Saskacheewan Soda, and Perhaps Potato Pattie.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:17 pm
okie wrote:
How come they didn't then?

The short answer is because most people didn't want to second-guess whom they perceived a hero. The long answer is still the subject of voluminous monographies and goes way beyond the scope of this thread.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:17 pm
I liked "in other news, water is wet," though. :-)

What should we be slowing down from, Okie? Of the potential candidates, all of whom I've investigated pretty thoroughly, Obama is the one who seems to offer the most. That includes ability, track record, and electability. As Buttrflynet points out, this is early in the process, of course. All of us are expecting to get a great deal more information. My mind is open as always -- if something emerges about Obama that is significantly off-putting or if something emerges about someone else that is significantly positive, I'll change my mind, sure. I don't have some internal switch that is currently at the "Obama" setting and won't change in the next two years or so.

Just, from what I've seen SO FAR, he looks like he is by far the best of the group. (And that's based on words, actions, follow-through, and a whole lot of things other than easily-dismissed "charisma.") I've been thinking that for roughly a year and every new piece of information I get -- and I actively look for it -- reinforces my opinion. Based on that, it's a safe bet that he will continue to do things that make me think he would be a good candidate, and that I will vote for him when the time comes. But of course it's early in the process yet.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jan, 2007 01:54 pm
And if he allows Mary Magdalen to wash his feet, we'll know for sure.

He does seem to be too good to be true. However, he's got the most of what it takes to change the dangerous course we've been on in the good ole USA. And that's the important point. And besides, he's got charisma. No one's mentioned that so far.
0 Replies
 
 

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