rabel22
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 04:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
If I remember rightly this was the opinion of many germans during the Hitler government. Its not my responsibility. This is the attitude that encourages very bad government as Bush 2 proved during his eight years.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 04:20 pm
@rabel22,
Is that right! Show me how I can change the practices on abortion? There are already laws on the books. Why don't you try enforcing them? Good luck.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 04:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From the Guardian article:

Quote:
The FBI defines terrorism as "violent acts... intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government, or affect the conduct of a government", which is a precise description of the activities of SOA's graduates. But how can we be sure that their alma mater has had any part in this? Well, in 1996, the US government was forced to release seven of the school's training manuals. Among other top tips for terrorists, they recommended blackmail, torture, execution and the arrest of witnesses' relatives.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 04:55 pm
@rabel22,
To put matters into perspective, try to reconcile all the abortions in India; they not only kill the fetus, but girl babies. If you are so concerned about human life, then what are you doing to save all the girl fetus/babies in India?

Quote:
India stipulates that only a government hospital, registered facility, or medical practitioner with appropriate qualifications may perform an abortion. The reality, however, is that only about 15 percent of all abortions take place under such circumstances, according to the Indian Medical Association. About 11.2 million illegal abortions are performed each year off the record. Such abortions are often "female feticide," experts say.


Does American babies have more value than Indian ones?
What does your Nazi analogy have to do with anything?
okie
 
  0  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:20 pm
So, I notice after all is said and done, my original observation was in fact correct, that it is okay in the liberal mind that punishment can be more severe for abusing an animal or killing it, than you might receive for consenting to the death of a baby that survived an abortion. Statements like this are so shocking to some people on this board, simply because they have not realized how their own support of leftists have led to the most convoluted policies and beliefs that have resulted into some very ridiculous results. When you come unhinged from sound principles, that is what will happen, as it leads to more and more contradictions and confusion, and ultimate chaos. The only remedy I see is a return to the foundation of sound principles of conservatism, but I don't have much hope it will happen for quite a while.
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:30 pm
@okie,
Talk about unhinged, Okie. You take the cake, hands down.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:32 pm
@okie,
Quote:
When you come unhinged from sound principles


The prime one being that one evaluates reality and then makes conclusions. Too often we start from what are believed to be conclusions but which are in fact biases, and then make reality fit after the fact. We see a lot of that on both the left and the right, and a whole lot of that at a2k. The Right can not justifiably claim moral superiority on this issue.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 10:41 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Gob1 writes: No, the evidence is to the contrary. Most involve deliberate abortions performed "for the mental health of the mother" or other like reasons.


Quote:
Cycloptichorn asks:
Do you have a link to such evidence? I could have swore that such abortions were illegal in most places without life-threatening circumstances.


Quote:
Gob1 replied: Evidently you prefer to evade the question. OK by me.


And yet, George had the temerity to write;

Quote:
Gob1 had written: Well, as cicerone has so uncharacteristically researched for us,


If you've ever provided ANY research, I sure have never seen you it, George.

Evasion is your stock in trade.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 11:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Come on CI. I never said that american babies were more important than indian ones. I dont agree with abortion but think that it is up to the individual to use thier consience to guide them although I begin to wonder if we americans have a consicense. I wont have to live with someone elses life decisions. The nazi analogy has to do with people hideing thier head in the sand even though they know that government decisions are wrong like the Bushs war with iraq that we americans did nothing about when we had a chance to throw them out of power on his second term. We let government stampede us into a stupid war even when a majority realized it was political bull shite.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 8 Apr, 2009 11:12 pm
@rabel22,
Quote:
The nazi analogy has to do with people hideing thier head in the sand even though they know that government decisions are wrong like the Bushs war with iraq that we americans did nothing about when we had a chance to throw them out of power on his second term. We let government stampede us into a stupid war even when a majority realized it was political bull shite.

Neither the Germans nor the Americans let our leaders take us someplace that we knew was wrong. We deluded ourselves into believing that the leaders must be right, we believed that the leaders were right. You must think back to 2003 or so and remember what the majority of people were thinking and feeling then. Those who were sure that it was a bad idea to invade Iraq were a small minority.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 04:40 am
@rabel22,
Quote:
Come on CI. I never said that american babies were more important than indian ones.


No-one expects you will say it. But it is trumpeted from every source in media and is the policy of every institution. Not saying it is neither here nor there.

It is a scientific fact. As was the consensus to war with Saddam.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 09:47 am


This country is getting a Frontal Obotomy and it will never be the same.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 10:08 am
@spendius,
What the hell are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 10:17 am
@hawkeye10,
The "majority" of the people believed a man who was already a proven lier. When one gulps down government propaganda they derserve the kind of government they get. And you will have to prove to me that the majority of the people believed the governments reason for going to war. All it would have taken was for people to do some reading of neutral sources instead of government propaganda. And most citizens might want to remember that the present government has its own propaganda sources. I dont believe anything any politicians says because they all tell you what you want to hear and tell me what I want to hear even when the telling is 180 degrees apart.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 10:40 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, That's because the Bush administration misinformed everybody about WMDs and Saddam's connection to the Taliban. Yes, I remember what happened back in 2003, but it seems you don't. It was after our military looked for WMDs for over one year after Bush started the war and found none when he declared we were there to bring democracy to the Middle East.

Yes, I remember.
rabel22
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 11:48 am
@cicerone imposter,
Your answer to hawkeye was much better than mine.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 12:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
You must think back to 2003 or so and remember what the majority of people were thinking and feeling then. Those who were sure that it was a bad idea to invade Iraq were a small minority.

Not just the majority of the people, but Congress, the CIA, other intel around the world, most believed Iraq probably had WMD. Hillary Clinton told us she checked out all of her dependable sources, and came to that conclusion, independent of what George Bush said. To be accurate, people were saying this about Hussein before Bush even went to Washington.

The Dems were not claiming no WMD before the war, sure there was a voice here or there of skepticism, but there was no consensus among Democrats that we would definitely not find WMD in Iraq. That only came later with 20/20 hindsight, after we failed to find it right away. This is key, and after a few months and we had failed to find recent WMD in Iraq, the Dems decided to gather up all the information out there that there was none and never was, building their case against Bush. After years of spin, and not only that, various Democrats accused our troops of being war criminals, terrorizing innocent Iraqis in the dead of night, killing and maiming countless innocent Iraqis, and on and on. The mantra was that the war was Bush's folly, virtually criminal, and it was never going to be a success, and in fact - Obama rode that issue as a foundation to his candidacy, he opposed the war as a bad idea all along, would accomplish nothing and in fact be counterproductive, and not only that, said the surge would never be successful.

With all of that history, Obama now goes to Iraq and essentially declares the whole operation is now a success, that we have accomplished much, and that it has given the Iraqis a chance to stand as a democratic country, saying:

"Under enormous strain and under enormous sacrifice, through controversy and difficulty and politics, you've kept your eyes focused on just doing your job. And because of that, every mission that's been assigned -- from getting rid of Saddam, to reducing violence, to stabilizing the country, to facilitating elections -- you have given Iraq the opportunity to stand on its own as a democratic country. That is an extraordinary achievement, and for that you have the thanks of the American people. (Applause.) That's point number one.

....

And so just as we thank you for what you've already accomplished, I want to say thank you because you will be critical in terms of us being able to make sure that Iraq is stable, that it is not a safe haven for terrorists, that it is a good neighbor and a good ally, and we can start bringing our folks home. (Applause.)

...

The main point I want to make is we have not forgotten what you have already done, we are grateful for what you will do, and as long as I am in the White House, you are going to get the support that you need and the thanks that you deserve from a grateful nation. (Applause.)"


I think this should amply illustrate Obama was not only wrong, he has not admitted as such, and not only that, he now is attempting to take credit for George Bush's policies and success. Not only Obama, but also the Democrats have now changed their tune about all of this. I think it is insulting.





Foxfyre
 
  0  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 01:14 pm
There is some encouragement here that President Obama can be persuaded to get it right. . . .

Quote:
Obama Sees a ‘Complete Failure’ in Iraq

KANSAS CITY, Mo., Aug. 21. 2007 " Senator Barack Obama said Tuesday that even if the military escalation in Iraq was showing limited signs of progress, efforts to stabilize the country had been a “complete failure” and American troops should not be entangled in the sectarian strife.

“No military surge, no matter how brilliantly performed, can succeed without political reconciliation and a surge of diplomacy in Iraq and the region,” Mr. Obama said. “Iraq’s leaders are not reconciling. They are not achieving political benchmarks.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/22/us/politics/22vets.html?_r=1


13 months later. . . .

Quote:
Surge 'Suceeded Beyond Our Wildest Dreams,' Obama Now Says
Friday, September 05, 2008
By Susan Jones, Senior Editor

Obama not only opposed the Iraq war from the beginning, he also opposed the troop surge and predicted it would not work. . . .

On Thursday, O’Reilly urged Obama to admit he was wrong about the surge.

“I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated -- by the way, including President Bush and the other supporters. It has gone very well,” Obama conceded. But, he added, it still hasn’t been a total success.

“We have reduced the violence, but the Iraqis still haven’t taken responsibility, and we still don’t have the kind of political reconciliation -- we are still spending $10-$12 billion dollars a month,” Obama said.

Obama has said that as president, he would draw down U.S. troops in Iraq and send two additional combat brigades to Afghanistan, which should have been the focus of the war on terror all along, he insists.

Obama’s Web site says that “immediately upon taking office,” Obama will order an end to the Iraq war. “The removal of our troops will be responsible and phased, directed by military commanders on the ground and done in consultation with the Iraqi government,” his Web site says. He envisions having most U.S. troops out of Iraq by the summer of 2010.
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=35226


and 5 months after that. . . .

Quote:
Obama's Iraq Problem
By Dan Froomkin
02/27/2009

By President Obama's reckoning, we never should have gone into Iraq in the first place, but today -- even as he announced a timeline for the departure of American troops -- he more or less endorsed former president George W. Bush's possibly unattainable goals for the benighted country.

"This strategy is grounded in a clear and achievable goal shared by the Iraqi people and the American people: an Iraq that is sovereign, stable, and self-reliant," Obama said today at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. "To achieve that goal, we will work to promote an Iraqi government that is just, representative, and accountable, and that provides neither support nor safe-haven to terrorists. We will help Iraq build new ties of trade and commerce with the world. And we will forge a partnership with the people and government of Iraq that contributes to the peace and security of the region."

Obama's decision to remove all combat troops from Iraq in 18 months, while leaving as many as 50,000 troops there in non-combat roles until the end of 2011, will strike some observers as too fast and others as too slow. It's certainly a bit slower than what he said he would do on the campaign trail.

But I have to wonder: What happens when we leave? And who gets the blame if things fall apart?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/2009/02/obamas_iraq_problem/pf.html
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  2  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 01:35 pm
Quote:
Surge 'Suceeded Beyond Our Wildest Dreams,' Obama Now Says

that almost reads as if Obama actually said it. Is succeeded really spelled 'suceeded?'
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 9 Apr, 2009 02:31 pm
@dyslexia,
The title doesn't agree with what Obama actually said:
Quote:
I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated -- by the way, including President Bush and the other supporters. It has gone very well,” Obama conceded. But, he added, it still hasn’t been a total success.


How does that translate into "suceeded beyond our wildest dream?"
 

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